can the transponders be wrong

[Decreasing_Dave]

UHHH.....HUH...HUH....I'm confused Bevis

Dafan,

I have to agree with Frank.  A lap is a lap is a lap.  Unless we're talking about 2 different things.  

I'm talking about 1 timing point (as in transponders) for a full and complete lap.  If you're talking about multiple points, that could be our discrepency.  

But how are multiple timing points relevent to Transponders and this topic??

 8)

[r6_philly]

A lap is made up of different sections, turn 123 may be T1 turn  4 5 6 may be T2, and T3 7 8 9 may be T3.

When an instrument, or a person messures at turn 4, it is messuring T2 + T3 + T1

When an instrument is measuring at turn 1, it is doing T1 + T2 + T3

So based on the intervals I have given you, add up the intervals to get the lap time the particular instrument will get at different points of the track

T1 + T2 + T3 will yield 60 seconds for all 3 laps,
T2 + T3 + T1 will yeld 62 seconds for 2 laps, but the lap that is missing (no start or finish possible from turn 4) will add up to 56 seconds.

Interval matters because: you may have done 3 laps with the same lap time from your transponder, but you may have gone so fast in turn 7 8 9, it messed up your turn 1 2 3, as in the example.

Just add up the times, you will see the difference. The person did 3 laps for a total of 180 seconds, but depend on how you add up the intervals (where you take lap time) you will produce different lap times.

[Thingy]

What Brian is trying to say is that if the two timers are not starting the clock with the rider at the same point of the track, they will differ.

For example, let's say that one timer is located at the end of the straight and the other timer is located at the beginning of the straight. If a rider does a lap, the two timers will show a differnt lap time because the timers were only timing the rider at the same time for a portion of the track.  

[ecumike]

Yea, I agree with Frank, but Brian and Dafan Do have a point...

Let's make this easy... taking the beg'ng/end of the straight example as above..

Say I come around the last turn, onto the straight to start lap#3, WFO the whole time, past Elec. timer and past hand timer.

Now.. I come around onto the straight to start #4 WFO past elect. timer, but then get stuck behind a slow rider, BEFORE I get to hand timer, and say, in T1 apex (just after the hand timer) I pass him..... Now the elect timer has me fast, hand timer has me slower, b/c I slowed down between the 2 timers.

Apply this to any point between the 2 timers (whether on the straight, or T1 & T3, etc...) and you will have a difference.  IE:  What Brian and Dafan are saying

BUT!!!!... for Lap #4.. the ELEC timer will be slower now, b/c I slowed down after it, (as the start of it's lap #4, but before the start of the hand timer's lap #4)

So it evens out as far as average, but it that particular lap WAS your fastest, and you don't run any faster.. then yes, the hand timer will never show that fast lap.

[Thingy]

Yea, I agree with Frank, but Brian and Dafan Do have a point...

Let's make this easy... taking the beg'ng/end of the straight example as above..

Say I come around the last turn, onto the straight to start lap#3, WFO the whole time, past Elec. timer and past hand timer.

Now.. I come around onto the straight to start #4 WFO past elect. timer, but then get stuck behind a slow rider, BEFORE I get to hand timer, and say, in T1 apex (just after the hand timer) I pass him..... Now the elect timer has me fast, hand timer has me slower, b/c I slowed down between the 2 timers.

Apply this to any point between the 2 timers (whether on the straight, or T1 & T3, etc...) and you will have a difference.  IE:  What Brian and Dafan are saying

BUT!!!!... for Lap #4.. the ELEC timer will be slower now, b/c I slowed down after it, (as the start of it's lap #4, but before the start of the hand timer's lap #4)

So it evens out as far as average, but it that particular lap WAS your fastest, and you don't run any faster.. then yes, the hand timer will never show that fast lap.

Yep.  Exactly. :D

[THE_D.O.C.]

you guys are crap. a lap is a lap is a lap. the only difference is that a human stopwatch is not as accurate as a lap timer.

if what you say is true, then just take all my fastest splits, and that will make my true qualifying time.  ::)


frank, don't teach a pig to sing.........

clowns.

[Roach]

you guys are crap. a lap is a lap is a lap. the only difference is that a human stopwatch is not as accurate as a lap timer.

If my buddy is timing me in T8 at Summit and the beacon for the transponder is past start/finish, what happens if I let off the throttle after I go by my buddy? Or crash in T9? Or how about I pull into the pits?

Unless the person with the stopwatch and the transponder beacon are in the same location, you are looking at two different laps (that happen to have an overlapping section). One starts and finishes at the beacon, one starts and finishes at the stopwatch location. Unless you are so consistant that your speed/time doesn't ever vary in any given section of track at any time, the two won't agree.

- Roach

[r6_philly]

you guys are crap. a lap is a lap is a lap. the only difference is that a human stopwatch is not as accurate as a lap timer.

if what you say is true, then just take all my fastest splits, and that will make my true qualifying time.  ::)


frank, don't teach a pig to sing.........

clowns.

dude it's an amazing accomplishment that you finally remembered most of the keys on the keyboard and their locations.

But then again I don't really expect you to give a reply that is not sparking anyways, it wouldn't be you... if you actually talk like anyone else has merit, then we got a really big problem.

You can get different lap times if you are timing at different points along the track. Simple as that. The total time a rider spent on the track would be contant, but based on the location (reference point) of the timer, the laps could break down differently therefore resulting in different lap times.

[Roach]

Trying to teach brad the concepts of relativity could be akin to talking to rock ... :D

The lap times are relative to the observer's location, be it a human with a stopwatch or a mechanical timer.

- Roach

[THE_D.O.C.]

you guys are incredibly funny, yet delusional at the same time. a transponder is perfect, the human eye/thumb is not.

but go ahead, "i'm faster in the turn three section so time me over there". ha ha ha ha

"mr mladin, why aren't you on the pole today?"

"well, the transponder is on the front straight, and i'm fast through turn five. therefore, my time is slower." ha ha ha ha ha


f&ckin' priceless. ha ha ha ha he he he ha ha ha ha.

[Roach]

a transponder is perfect, the human eye/thumb is not.

Correct. But that's not what we're talking about currently. You made the incorrect statement that it doesn't matter at what point on the track you time a lap, it'll be the same as timing it from somewhere else. That's rather stupid.

Set up two transponders, one (transponder A) at start/finish, one in T8 (transponder B).

Make a mistake in T10 on lap 4, run off the edge of the track losing some time,  then continue to start/finish.

The lap that was run at full speed from T8 to T8 without error (recorded by transponder B, part of laps 3 and 4 relative to start/finish (race scoring))  will be X.

The lap run from start/finish to start/finish (recorded by transponder A, lap 4) will be SLOWER because you screwed up T10 before completing the lap RELATIVE TO START/FINISH.
 
The reverse will then also be true on the next recordings (provided another rider error isn't made). Transponder B will record a slower lap (T8 to T8, with a screwup in T10) and transponder A will get a full-speed lap (start-finish to start-finish with no errors)

How hard is that to grasp? Everything is relative to the observer's (timer's) location.

- Roach

[Frank_Angel]

Actually Frank, I spent a lot of time thinking about this...

Dafan, you're right, but that's not what I meant. You are correct, but your example isn't timing the same lap. You're comparing lap charts, not laps. We do lap timings from different locations on the circuit all the time, all you need to do to get the lap charts back in synch is to net out the differences between the untimed portions. Rework your example and you'll see what I mean, the difference in lap times in your lap chart can be brought back to perfect alignment with some simple adjustment. That was my original point, i.e., that lap times for the same lap from accurate timings will be identical regardless of where they are taken.