Should we buy CCS from CCE?

[motomadness]

Should we buy CCS/FUSA from CCE?  Or at least the web reporting rights?

It seems like the only means for a change is to revamp the system.  How do you do that in corporate america, you buy it?

What would it take to buy CCS/FUSA from CCE?

[tzracer]

Money.

I heard that CCE paid about $2,000,000 for CCS. I would expect that the price would be at least that amount.

I have thought about a racer owned organization, but I think it might be difficult. We have a fairly transient membership. How would you run things? You would probably need some sort of constitution so you don't have rules and regs being changed by the whim of the majority.

While a nice idea, I think the running of such a large organization by the members would be difficult. Even having a represetative from each region would be difficult (when, where, how often would they meet, etc).

[sdiver68]

Finally, for the first time in awhile, someone has hit the nail on the head...

Of course CCE would listen...for the right price.

We need about $600K in cash up front.  The rest I can borrow, assuming the Income Statements, Balance Sheets, and Cash Flow look good for CCS Roadracing.  However, without the $600K, it may be difficult to get access to those documents.  Also, anyone with experience in M&A that would be willing to contribute some preliminary work would be good as well.

Who's in???

BTW, you don't need to run it as a member owned org, just by someone who is more responsive to CCS needs than CCE appears to be.

One caution, however, once someone got a good hard look at all the documents and/or even bought CCS, many of the decisions being made may not be much different.

[motomadness]

I think from what I've seen at the track in my 2.5 years of participating in CCS, there are a lot of folks that have been around for a while.  It is those people whom you must look toward for guidance.

If we really wanted to we could do it.

Beside in most organization, most of the work is done by a dedicated few.

Something must be done.

[tzracer]

BTW, you don't need to run it as a member owned org, just by someone who is more responsive to CCS needs than CCE appears to be.

One caution, however, once someone got a good hard look at all the documents and/or even bought CCS, many of the decisions being made may not be much different.

I have been a member of CCS since 1991. Personally I think CCS is better now than when I joined (who still has their EMR sticker?). The reason I mentioned a member owned org is your last sentance. If CCS where sold, things could end up worse than they are now. CCS needs to be owned by someone who cares about CCS and its members first and profits second.

[dwilson]

First question, why do you want CCS?  Do you think you can do better?  If so than what does "better" mean?  With as many regions as their are,  you'll always be fighting "you like their region better", the constant shift of public opinion, financial woes...  I think this sounds like a job for a project manager.  

Sounds like fun though, with a viable plan and proper organization, I'd get involved.  But right now you need cash.  

[r6_philly]

The only solution is to have a new management, with a new corporate philosophy, one that values and caters the customers. We are spending our wealth on racing, it would be nice that the company that took our money cared more about us, and it would be nice if we could have been involved in the decision making process. Even AMA have a comment period on their rules, so if that is criticized enough and not good enough, what do we have?

I had previously thoiught that if we can have some financial interests in CCS and have some say in the management process, it would improve things. Obviously complaining isn't doing it.

If we can come up with a plan to buy CCS, I would offer to be a part of the process, and volunteer to be involved in all data-related operations. (see my other post)

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

     Just like the issue earlier in the year with the MW Region awards banquet not being a success, I believe that assistance to help CCS is needed - not so much a take over. The suggestion I had was to let us assist CCS in planning for the awards banquet by helping to find locations and possibly presenting options here for the riders to vote on. I realize that only some of us are regulars here and not everyone would be able to vote online, but there are enough of us online from every region to represent an opinion of what the riders want.

     My view is similar with this subject. I too would like to see the website and other issues handled more efficiently, but I also realize that Kevin & Tiffineys hands are somewhat tied with the 2 of them having to perform all aspects of running CCS and handling 5000+ members. I believe that they do need some assistance with getting info posted on the website in a more timely fashion, and there have already been offers by people here to help in that area. I would imagine the time consumed by data entry for every region, every week, onto the website adds up really fast - not even taking into account the time it takes to sort out all the info and confirm it.

     What I am suggesting is to have a volunteer from each region donate their time by assisting in what ever way needed to get our results and points posted promptly. This would probably involve doing the busy work of the data entry, but it would take a load off of Kevin & Tiffiney and make alot of racers happy by seeing timely results posted on the website.

     In return for their effort that person would be rewarded with a coupon for 1 free class entry at the event of their choice, for each set of event results they complete. This free class would always be applied to the last class you enter and would require the purchase of at least 2 entries per free coupon, at the time you choose to use it. The coupon would have an expiration date and be transferable to another rider if so desired (Transfer of ownership must be signed by your regions race director or done thru CCS HQ).

     This is a suggestion that would only cost CCS a free race entry per set of event results completed, so it actually wouldn't cost them anything. In the end I think it would sure help to grease the wheels between the riders and CCS, and take somewhat of the burden off of them without having to add another paid employee!

[r6_philly]

I offered it for free. They didn't take it.

[GAMEDIC]

i also suggested that...no answer either.... it is pretty obvious..they do not care or things would be fixed..or at very least show some effort to get fixed nothing aganist Tiff or Kevin 2 people can only do so much...if they need help CCE should give it to them.. the only other thing i can think of is ..has anyone got in touch with CCE?...do they even know the problems?... they may think everything is fine if they are not being told there is a problem

[motomadness]

I think many of these comments are shared by many members.  What can we do to make the issues we have and the issue the CCS staff has into a positive discussion where a solutions are found, then implemented?

My idea to purchase CCS was not to replace the current staff, but to enhance their resources and improve the overall management of the membership matter.  I don't know what we could provide in terms of the business side because, quite frankly, we don't know any of the specifics of the day-to-day tasks.

Finally, I am tired of gripping without feeling my gripes are doing something.  It's long past time for change.

[sdiver68]

has anyone got in touch with CCE?...do they even know the problems?... they may think everything is fine if they are not being told there is a problem

Yesterday, I personally wrote a constructive e-mail to the CIO of CCE offering mine (and others here  ;D ) free help in developing a system, or modifying Jack's if he were willing, that could take the raw data feeds from the Points and Scoring system and import the results into a database, from which a dynamic web page could serve up results on demand.

We are talking an existing data export, a handful of tables at most, and 1 dynamic web page using the development platform of CCE's choice.  We could even use all free software (not that CCE doesn't have a few thousand licences floating around) and run the whole thing off of someone's discarded Pentium 300 LOL

Anyway, I'll be interested to find out if he replies.  If not, I'll shoot the same e-mail to others in Executive Management.

I just read Dafan's posts, and had not realized he had gotten that far.  Legal put a stop to it?  That's corporate politics at its finest....

[motomadness]

I feel a ground swell of emotion and desire.

[Super Dave]

Buy CCS?  I'm sure it would take a lot.

Memeber org?  Well, as long as someone can be in charge to say yes or no to things.  As a democracy, sometimes the minority is the only one heard.  Remember the forms that were handed out a few years ago?  There were a handful of complaints from some amateurs that their practice was always first, so, the next season, the experts were first.  The only one's complaining were that amateurs (the only "voters" on the topic), so no expert wrote down that having their practice later was good.

Anyway, that's always been one of the "benefits" of being an expert:  later practice.  Eventually, experts and amateurs were put back into their traditional positions.

There is a new system being developed for CCS, Tiffiney tells me.  Might make things easier for us all, I don't know.

I guess now is the time to talk with Kevin and Tiff with new ideas.  It is much easier to work within the existing frame work and develop something.  I mean, the basics are correct:  we race, we get scored, there are various classes.  Hey, we never had on line points years ago and somehow we lived.  I've been racing with CCS since 1988, WERA in 1987.  Sure, there have been lots of changes.  The big contingencies above the manufactures contingencies was brought about by Bob Applegate and Roger Edmonson.  That's been a great help to us all.

[motomadness]

I guess it comes down to the fact that the members love to race and are eager to improve the organization.  Some of us have spoken very loudly that we want to help anyway we can, but our offerings are seemingly rejected.  Why is that?  We are trying to make things better for not just ourselves individually, but for the organization as a whole.

The business side: getting increase contingency, more venues, web sites, photographers, reporters, advertisers and making a business profitable to have some longevity is a humungus job for any team.  If someone is offering to assist with all of the work, and in some cases for free, why not figure out a way to accept their assistance.  I can understand that there are legal issue, but I think that is all they are - issues.  

Super Dave has been around a while.  I don't plan on going anywhere, just as many others don't.  I think there are a base of folks out there willing to stay on and follow through with any improvements.

This may be something we can put more effort into in the off season, but two things to keep in mind:
- these are not rules changes
- members need a voice to CCS/CCE and made aware of issues CCS/CCE are engaged in with respect to racing.

[Eddie#200]

We all need to realize since there currently are only two people assigned to run the show, it will take quite a bit of effort to make the decision to make a change while simultaneously doing the current work that's due.  It's not fun being behind the eight ball.  I think they are doing a good job for what they have.  Yes, it could be better.

Remember, this is a hobby for many racers.  Yes, it's a business for many of us too.  

Offers to help are great, but once the job is yours you will need to pony up the time and do the job right.  I understand where they are coming from not jumping on every offer.  Can CCS rely on you to be there every time they need you if you are just a volunteer?  They need to have a system that can work without hiring extra folks.

So being a systems guy too... I clearly see both views as being valid.  

Kevin, Tiff... we are making a serious offer to help, I would take a serious look at what we can do.  It wouldn't take that much of your time to use a phased approach.  I have a lot of computer gear I could donate as well.  There are folks that could easily automate the data input.  It would be kinda cool!

I've noticed that there is a great deal of talent in our midst.  ;D

[tshort]

Regarding having up-to-date points and results, I think what is needed is not more labor thrown at the problem, but more labor thrown at the system.

I'm sure there are some board-junkies around here who have the chops to code up a nice little routine that would suck raw transponder data out of the scoring computer at the races, and transform it into race results, in near realtime.  Seems to me like macros and a spreadsheet would get that done.

Then it's a matter of a second routine (maybe) that saves it all in the appropriate html format, and uploads it to the CCS site.  

And as a bonus, it ought to be downloadable to anyone that wants it.

And as an added bonus, the laptimes ought to be also downloadable to anyone that wants them.

This *ain't* brain surgery - someone at CCS just has to decide that it would be worth doing.  And then we need volunteers from here to devote the time and energy to getting it done.

I am not a coder, so I'm afraid I can't help.  I could project manage it, tho, and I'd be happy to do that.  

Tiffiney?  What do you say?  What roadblocks would we run into?

[SE#39]

Back in 1983 Roger Edmondson broke away from WERA and formed CCS.
The best years CCS has ever had were when Roger and Peggy "hands on" ran the show out of Asheville.
 
We need another Roger Edmondson.

[slclark65]

I guess you guys didn't read my post under "updates".  There are more than just 2 people that work with the CCS series in the Fort Worth office.  You have Angie that does the charges, Nicole that does the entries, Linda that does refunds and other things in the office.  Maybe if you guys pay attention alittle more when you call into the office and ask for the right people, things might get done.  

I am sure I will get blasted by a few that will read this.  But It is about time the truth is out.  I'll probably be banned from this sight soon if I let anymore truths out to the people that read this board.

[motomadness]

I never put a lot of belief in that idea that there were only two people running the show.  It still doesn't take away from the fact that something needs to be done, and poeple are volunteering their sweat to make a difference.

[SliderPhoto]

I guess you guys didn't read my post under "updates".  There are more than just 2 people that work with the CCS series in the Fort Worth office.  You have Angie that does the charges, Nicole that does the entries, Linda that does refunds and other things in the office.  Maybe if you guys pay attention alittle more when you call into the office and ask for the right people, things might get done.  

I am sure I will get blasted by a few that will read this.  But It is about time the truth is out.  I'll probably be banned from this sight soon if I let anymore truths out to the people that read this board.

I'm sorry Stacy, from my point of view, you weren't any better. I called you numerous times, not one call returned.

[slclark65]

Well you know that is your opinion and you know waht they say about opinions.  I never said that I did do a great job.  I stated that the same shit happened when I was there and that was over a year ago.  So I guess my point is that it wasn't fixed then and it sure as hell ain't fixed.

[slclark65]

Oh by the way, did you try to call anyone else and get a better response, other than Kevin?  

[CCS]

Thanks for all the offers of help, we wish we could use them. Unfortunately either through business practices/policies of CCE or the practicality of shipping the required data back and forth, to involve you in these areas where the company would allow you to help would require as much time to assemble what you need as it takes for us to actually do it.

The production of results is done by the Wednesday following each event, points are updated by Thursday, then the html's are sent to the internet department for posting. This is where we get hung up sometimes. Depending on what their work load is, they can be posted within hours, or sometimes days. They have more than just CCS to look after and CCE's policy doesn't allow a non-CCE person to post content on their sites. So even if we sent the results to you to process, they would still have to go through the CCE Internet department. They are doing a better job than previous years, and for that I am grateful.

We are developing a new program that will intergrate the electronic scoring and the complete Race Series Management System into one program that will be capable of genterating individual laptimes/race results/career information for access through our website, but as those who are programmers know, it takes time. Steve has been working on it for 3 years and it is finally close enough to actually test, but it is at least 6 months away from it's debut in our series. This program is the most complete ever designed for any racing series, and when it is unveiled I'm sure you will all agree that it was worth the effort.

The last word I was given on the sale of CCS was that CCE was not interested in selling CCS at this time. That was directly from the highest source I have access to in this company.

We do value and cater to our customers, every season we send out surveys and ask for rider input on lots of subjects ranging from purses to race length to new classes. What we do not do, is make decisions that benefit only one small segment of our ridership. We must balance the requests of a vocal few against the best interest of the whole group, that is why we have a rules committee, and a competition committee made up of the 12 Race Directors and Referees, to keep the interests of all ten regions in mind when changes are proposed. (Some business decision are mandated to us and we do the best that we can with what we have to work with.)

Stacey was right, we have others in this office helping us, but they do the same tasks for us that they have been doing for the last four years (except for Nicole stepping up and actually doing the data entry for us now), they also do these same tasks for Arenacross/Freestyle/Dirt Track so they are only able to devote a portion of their time and efforts to CCS. We appreciate all the help we can get, and it is this help that has enabled the 2 full time CCS people in Fort Worth to get anything done at all. Kenny in Aurora is the only other full-time road race person, and he has to also look after marketing/promotion/media for XSBA and Formula USA too, so he has his hands full. Starting out last year we had 6  full time people helping us with just road race plus the office staff that helped, so we are a little understaffed right now and with the slowing economy, we aren't likely to see any change in that number.

Thanks to all of you who offered your help, thanks to all of you who have helped us when we could take it, and especially thanks to all of the licensed racers for their patience and support.

[ysr612]

Money.


I have thought about a racer owned organization, ....
but I think it might be difficult. We have a fairly While a nice idea, I think the running of such a large organization by the members would be difficult. Even having a represetative from each region would be difficult (when, where, how often would they meet, etc).

The CMRA is racer owned the USA one

[slclark65]

Jack,

I am still waiting for your reply.  I'ms ure it is taking along time to have to think that far back.

[SliderPhoto]

Jack,

I am still waiting for your reply.  I'ms ure it is taking along time to have to think that far back.

Sure, you never took the time to get back to me but you expect me to get back to you... Don't hold your breath.

[slclark65]

Thats fine with me.  I didn't lose any sleep than I and sure won't lose any now.  I don't care what you thought of me then or now as a matter of fact.  I guess the riders were a priority back then, more so than a photographer.  Like I said, there were other people in that office at the time.  I sure wasn't the only one.  

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

The production of results is done by the Wednesday following each event, points are updated by Thursday, then the html's are sent to the internet department for posting. This is where we get hung up sometimes. Depending on what their work load is, they can be posted within hours, or sometimes days. They have more than just CCS to look after and CCE's policy doesn't allow a non-CCE person to post content on their sites. So even if we sent the results to you to process, they would still have to go through the CCE Internet department. They are doing a better job than previous years, and for that I am grateful.

We are developing a new program that will intergrate the electronic scoring and the complete Race Series Management System into one program that will be capable of genterating individual laptimes/race results/career information for access through our website, but as those who are programmers know, it takes time. Steve has been working on it for 3 years and it is finally close enough to actually test, but it is at least 6 months away from it's debut in our series. This program is the most complete ever designed for any racing series, and when it is unveiled I'm sure you will all agree that it was worth the effort.

     I look forward to seeing the system you've described in action. I realize that the website aspect of CCS is relatively new as compared to how long CCS has been around, so that alone can help to describe the current situation as "growing pains". CCS having a website is appreciated (and expected, to be honest), but the fact that it isn't kept up to date as soon as most would think it should be able to be is the frustrating part.

     The due process of how results are handled (as described by you) helps to shed some light on where CCS stands in the food chain of CCE, we apparently must be the bottom feeders of CCE. For example, our points for the MW/GL/GP regions have not been updated for almost a month - according to the process you described that would put it at 3 weeks in the internet departments hands since leaving CCS processing. That's pretty bad, we must be kept at the bottom of the pile in the CCE internet department.

     Hopefully the new system will help to eliminate that delay and keep CCS independently responsible, instead of being treated as the bastard step-child by CCE. ;)

[motomadness]

Stacey,

Not to get on your bad side, but if your attitude is in anyway representative of how CCS used to be run (behind the scenes of course), then I look forward to the future.  Jack has and will continue to be a vital part of CCS, NESBA, Mid-West Riders and many other organizations because he provides racers and spectators (and the LP USA catalog) with a means to capture moments in their lives with his high quality product and services.  If you can't see the value in that, you never got it.  I also take offense to your attempt to debase the services Jack provides us.

[slclark65]

I believe Shaw I spoke to you many times while I was employed with CCS.  Looking back at my notes, I see where we talked a few times.  Anyone that knows me knows that I was very dedicated to the riders and to the organization.  But I have nothing to do with it now, so I don't care what anyone thinks of me. I gained respect from many and if I didn't from him, i'm sorry.  But not my problem anymore.