THE 300S GET PUT IN 500SS

Started by MACOP1104, November 26, 2014, 08:50:58 AM

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MACOP1104

Bad move in my opinion.   What does an FZR400 ss bike make for HP? 

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MAZZ77X

Quote from: MACOP1104 on November 26, 2014, 08:50:58 AM
Bad move in my opinion.   What does an FZR400 ss bike make for HP? 

Not enough! Should be great for the class.
I was actually hoping Moto America's class would be more like CCS's.

Gino230

How many FZR's are in SuperSport condition??? I wouldn't worry too much about it.
CCS / ASRA EX # 23
2012 Ducati 848 / 1100 Conversion     2005 Ducati 749RS
2006 CCS Florida Thunderbike Champion (AM)
2008 CCS LW Supersport National Champion (EX) 2nd in 2011 and now  2012....damn you Mavros!

bruce71198

Quote from: MAZZ77X on November 26, 2014, 03:09:40 PM
Not enough! Should be great for the class.
I was actually hoping Moto America's class would be more like CCS's.

As in allowing more makes and models or performance allowances?

MACOP1104

Quote from: MAZZ77X on November 26, 2014, 03:09:40 PM
Not enough! Should be great for the class.
I was actually hoping Moto America's class would be more like CCS's.

I'd like to see the R3, the 390, and the 300s go at it in Moto America but for right now, KTM steps up to the plate and gets it all so good for them.

Back to original question....   Somebody told me 55-60hp in a FZR400 ss bike.  That's pretty stout number to race against if you're on a 38-42hp bike. 

MACOP1104

#6
Quote from: Gino230 on November 26, 2014, 03:37:38 PM
How many FZR's are in SuperSport condition??? I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Wrong way of thinking.   If one shows up at Daytona with a good rider, everyone else is racing for 2d place.   

BTW, Kcraget has a fleet of FZR400s in mothballs and I heard he may break one out for 500SS in 2015....

dpelt73

my buddy was on his cbr500 at Daytona. The other 500 that ran supposedly had loads of work done on it. not sure if it would be supersport legal if someone inspected everything. he said it and the fzr just pulled away on the banks.  He dynoed his bike about a week ago and had 43hp. just exhaust, filter, and powercommander with a generic map.
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MACOP1104

Quote from: dpelt73 on November 26, 2014, 04:24:43 PM
my buddy was on his cbr500 at Daytona. The other 500 that ran supposedly had loads of work done on it. not sure if it would be supersport legal if someone inspected everything. he said it and the fzr just pulled away on the banks.  He dynoed his bike about a week ago and had 43hp. just exhaust, filter, and powercommander with a generic map.

Pete Hupperich has been riding one and I believe his is SS legal and a bit over 50hp.   

apriliaman

Quote from: MACOP1104 on November 26, 2014, 08:50:58 AM
Bad move in my opinion.   What does an FZR400 ss bike make for HP? 
My bone stock fzr 400 engine is in the 50's in HP,but is is 400LBS on the scale.It only has power from 10-13k RPM under that the KAW 250 can easy pass me out of a turn.
Winner of at least 50 CCS Lightweight Regional Championships
3 National Championships
Top 10 plate holder since 2006

MACOP1104

Quote from: apriliaman on November 26, 2014, 07:02:13 PM
My bone stock fzr 400 engine is in the 50's in HP,but is is 400LBS on the scale.It only has power from 10-13k RPM under that the KAW 250 can easy pass me out of a turn.
Thanks for the input.  The off season is here so I'm just stirring up the pot.  If someone built a proper FZR400 supersport bike,  I think the other bikes in 500ss would have a tough time.  I'm questioning the decision to put the newly introduced LW bikes at a disadvantage to the old timer 400 in the interest of protecting the few 250s that are being raced.  Seems like they need to bring back lightweight and heavyweight sportsman and redraw the lines.

Zaph

There's been a couple discussions about this around this forum.

Yeah, the rule is stupid.  The CCS wasn't thinking or listening to what people want when they decided to group the R3 and RC390 in with 500SS.  It's like saying SV650's are welcome to race in middleweight.

HerbigCBR

Quote from: Zaph on November 26, 2014, 08:26:32 PM
There's been a couple discussions about this around this forum.

Yeah, the rule is stupid.  The CCS wasn't thinking or listening to what people want when they decided to group the R3 and RC390 in with 500SS.  It's like saying SV650's are welcome to race in middleweight.


Maybe they were listening to the people on the 250's. I think the 250 riders outnumber the ninja 300, fzr400, & cbr500 bikes combined...
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SVbadguy

Here's a power to weight comparison I put together based on the average numbers I could find online.

RC390
7.95 lb/hp
13.5lb/ft-lb tq

R3
8.8 lb/hp
16.9lb/fl-lb tq

CBR500
9.55 lb/hp
14.7 lb/ft-lb tq

Ninja 300
11.6 lb/hp
22.7 lb/ft-lb tq
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Capitalview

Quote from: HerbigCBR on November 26, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
Maybe they were listening to the people on the 250's. I think the 250 riders outnumber the ninja 300, fzr400, & cbr500 bikes combined...

There was a simple, yet ignored solution.  Run the 250s and new ULW bikes during the same race.  Just score them separately.  That is what several race orgs are already doing.  CCS could have had the best of both worlds with a better bottom line.

Capitalview

Are those stock or modified HP and TRQ #s?


I find it hard to believe the Kawi has the most lb/hp # since it is heavier by about 20 or 30 lbs

SVbadguy

Stock numbers.

More weight per horsepower = lower performance= Ninja is the slowest engine-wise.
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MARRC Exec Committee at-large & Radio Committee Chair

MACOP1104

Quote from: SVbadguy on November 26, 2014, 09:04:47 PM
Here's a power to weight comparison I put together based on the average numbers I could find online.

RC390
7.95 lb/hp
13.5lb/ft-lb tq

R3
8.8 lb/hp
16.9lb/fl-lb tq

CBR500
9.55 lb/hp
14.7 lb/ft-lb tq

Ninja 300
11.6 lb/hp
22.7 lb/ft-lb tq


Good info.  So a conservative FZR400 at 55hp and 400 lbs is 7.27 lbs/hp.   A 60hp FZR400 at 385 lbs is 6.42 lbs/hp.   Im not sure what a SS FZR400 is capable of hp and weight.

MACOP1104

Quote from: HerbigCBR on November 26, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
Maybe they were listening to the people on the 250's. I think the 250 riders outnumber the ninja 300, fzr400, & cbr500 bikes combined...

Fine.  250s can race themselves and the newer ulwtb bikes can go at it.   This is what WERA is doing for 2015.   

Capitalview

Quote from: SVbadguy on November 26, 2014, 09:40:08 PM
Stock numbers.

More weight per horsepower = lower performance= Ninja is the slowest engine-wise.


Yeah, I had it hp/lb in my head for some reason,  not lb/hp.

Zaph

Quote from: HerbigCBR on November 26, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
Maybe they were listening to the people on the 250's. I think the 250 riders outnumber the ninja 300, fzr400, & cbr500 bikes combined...

If they were listening, they would have fixed the mistake of allowing the ninja 300 into that group.  It's not the bike numbers that count, it's the fairness. 

Quote from: Capitalview on November 26, 2014, 09:06:34 PM
There was a simple, yet ignored solution.  Run the 250s and new ULW bikes during the same race.  Just score them separately.  That is what several race orgs are already doing.  CCS could have had the best of both worlds with a better bottom line.

I like this idea a lot.  There's a place for everyone then.

Quote from: SVbadguy on November 26, 2014, 09:04:47 PM
RC390
7.95 lb/hp
13.5lb/ft-lb tq

You're using a crankshaft hp number for the RC and R3.  We don't have real RWHP numbers yet.  I suspect all these bikes will be pretty close to the ninja 300 with the R3 having the biggest advantage.  Also, at some bigger track, the more important spec is peak hp vs aerodynamic efficiency.  Put all the bikes at Daytona or Road America, and weight doesn't even matter anymore.

apriliaman

The Kawasaki EX500 has more power than the Honda CBR500.That bike can be raced also
Winner of at least 50 CCS Lightweight Regional Championships
3 National Championships
Top 10 plate holder since 2006

Gino230

Correct me if I'm wrong please:

The 250 riders are still happy, as the 300's are out but they still don't have the spec class.

However the Ninja 300 guys are hosed because they can't ride with the 250s and will get smoked by the 500s.

The 390 and 500 guys (whoever they will be) are not happy because the FZR 400 will be too fast.

SO everyone is marginally unhappy- sounds like they got the rule right?
CCS / ASRA EX # 23
2012 Ducati 848 / 1100 Conversion     2005 Ducati 749RS
2006 CCS Florida Thunderbike Champion (AM)
2008 CCS LW Supersport National Champion (EX) 2nd in 2011 and now  2012....damn you Mavros!

Gino230

Quote from: apriliaman on November 27, 2014, 12:17:28 AM
The Kawasaki EX500 has more power than the Honda CBR500.That bike can be raced also

Mark, any idea what the top speed on the FZR was at Daytona?

These power to weight numbers don't tell the whole story. It's relevant but the way the bikes make power, length of straights, aerodynamics play a big role. The big HP LW bikes make 128 HP, but an R6 has 30+ MPH top speed advantage despite the same dyno numbers.

Each bike will have it's own strengths and weaknesses.
CCS / ASRA EX # 23
2012 Ducati 848 / 1100 Conversion     2005 Ducati 749RS
2006 CCS Florida Thunderbike Champion (AM)
2008 CCS LW Supersport National Champion (EX) 2nd in 2011 and now  2012....damn you Mavros!

apriliaman

Where did you see that the 300 is out???The KAW EX 500 can get close to 120 as I got one also so I know. The lap times my FZR does is the same as what well ridden KAW 250's does on all the tracks except Daytona.At Daytona I was 3-4 seconds a lap slower then what I did in 2008.Could have been beacuse I could not grip the throttle and brakes correctly beacuse on my hand.I had the GPS timer on for 1 practice and it did steady 126 mph every lap and one lap drafting it did 129.I say that is amazing for how old it is.Yes the NEW bikes of today in that class will not get to that top speed.But that is my only advantage on that bike.It is the same type of advantage as an Air Cooled Ducati Superbike VS  Supersport Suzuki SV650!!! They ride in the same class also.My Ducati is 10mph faster then my SV on some tracks but that doesn't mean it is faster for a whole lap.
Winner of at least 50 CCS Lightweight Regional Championships
3 National Championships
Top 10 plate holder since 2006

britx303

Quote from: MACOP1104 on November 26, 2014, 08:50:58 AM
Bad move in my opinion.   What does an FZR400 ss bike make for HP?
FZR400's were legal from the start of the 500ss,in stock form,correct? Thats how i read it when the class was first announced,because it had me scrambling to locate a stocker again,which i didnt get :banghead: . Our FZR's are heavy compared to other bikes in the class by a good amount,and i think with the bikes that are eligible in 500ss,its down to the rider skill more than anything.Isnt that a main point of the class.....?

Zaph

Quote from: Gino230 on November 27, 2014, 09:52:01 PM
The 250 riders are still happy, as the 300's are out but they still don't have the spec class.

However the Ninja 300 guys are hosed because they can't ride with the 250s and will get smoked by the 500s.

The ninja 300 guys are still allowed in the 250 class.  If I were rolling on a 250 ninja right now, I would be unhappy.  If they did kick them out of the 250 class that's a great move, but I don't think they did.

MACOP1104

Quote from: britx303 on November 28, 2014, 10:12:27 AM
FZR400's were legal from the start of the 500ss,in stock form,correct? Thats how i read it when the class was first announced,because it had me scrambling to locate a stocker again,which i didnt get :banghead: . Our FZR's are heavy compared to other bikes in the class by a good amount,and i think with the bikes that are eligible in 500ss,its down to the rider skill more than anything.Isnt that a main point of the class.....?

Rider skill is the last thing CCS thinks about with their LW class structure..

britx303

#28
Just be glad almost nobody has zxr400's here in the states :ass:  As much as i love the fzr400,thats a bike to get your hands on for 500ss :ahhh:

SVbadguy

Quote from: britx303 on November 28, 2014, 08:31:34 PM
Just be glad almost nobody has zxr400's here in the states :ass:  As much as i love the fzr400,thats a bike to get your hands on for 500ss :ahhh:

Not legal for the class anyways.

Quote500 SuperSport motorcycles are production machines sold by manufacturers and their dealers for street use in North America via normal commercial channels. 
Mid-Atlantic Region 
MARRC Exec Committee at-large & Radio Committee Chair

Ramsfan80

Has anybody thought about riding an ex500 or gs500? There is a lot of bikes which if ridden by a good rider can be and will be very competitive in the class IMO. Everywhere except Daytona.

britx303

Quote from: SVbadguy on November 28, 2014, 11:12:53 PM
Not legal for the class anyways.
Canada got the zxr......unless im mixing up the grey bike thingy ::) But i thought a canadien fellow told me they were brought there to dealers

britx303

Quote from: Ramsfan80 on November 29, 2014, 12:34:28 AM
Has anybody thought about riding an ex500 or gs500? There is a lot of bikes which if ridden by a good rider can be and will be very competitive in the class IMO. Everywhere except Daytona.
The ex500 is very capable in the class.I dont know squat about the gs500's,but ive been on track with some modified old gs450's and seen them very well ridden,and kept cornerspeed up and they stayed with the pack.