2015 Schedule

[Gino230]

1:32 at NJMP is best Mavros could do on their big HP fancy duc, what's that tell you about Daytona?  :)

It tells me you're trying to use one rider's times to justify a complete remake of the class structure while throwing out every other piece of the puzzle.

By that logic, let's look at Jon Foy or Kat Zimpel's times. They are running MW machinery and by using their times, the R6 should be allowed in LW at Daytona.

[Capitalview]

All this arguing about the lightweight class is a moot point. 

Does Kevin even read any of this stuff?  If he doesn't, we are all just talking to ourselves. 

What is the point to having this discussion if the people that make the changes are not even listening or, only listen once a year during the rule change proposal time.

Second, with no modern viable options for LW there is nothing we can do but live with the current situation.

Of course, when there are new options, like the KTM RC390 or Yamaha R3 they are ignored in order to preserve the 250 ninjas...

[LWT Racer]

We don't know what's happening until 2015 rulebook comes out

[Gino230]

All this arguing about the lightweight class is a moot point. 

Does Kevin even read any of this stuff?  If he doesn't, we are all just talking to ourselves. 

What is the point to having this discussion if the people that make the changes are not even listening or, only listen once a year during the rule change proposal time.

Second, with no modern viable options for LW there is nothing we can do but live with the current situation.

Of course, when there are new options, like the KTM RC390 or Yamaha R3 they are ignored in order to preserve the 250 ninjas...

Of course you're correct! I'm just happy to have someone to talk racing with, even if it means re-hashing the same argument 4 times a year. Guess that doesn't say much about my personal life. Really, I've got plenty of people to talk to.....just not many of them care too much about racing unfortunately. 

[Capitalview]

How about letting the new Ducati 821 into LW then!

[LWT Racer]

get out.

[Gino230]

Ha! Not going to happen. That's a destroked 848 and it would be too easy to make it too fast.

If anything, the SV crowd should be happy about this bike. With Ducati ceasing production of the air cooled motors, it's going to be harder and harder to keep the big bore ducs going. The only way to get real power is by using the latest set of cases from the hypermotard with the top ignition pickup. Those are getting rare already. Unfortunately the writing is on the wall :(

[LWT Racer]

Which leaves us with the FZ-07 ( if it doesn't suck) otherwise SV and air cooled Ducs will stay popular. 

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

All this arguing about the lightweight class is a moot point. 

Does Kevin even read any of this stuff?  If he doesn't, we are all just talking to ourselves. 

What is the point to having this discussion if the people that make the changes are not even listening or, only listen once a year during the rule change proposal time.

Second, with no modern viable options for LW there is nothing we can do but live with the current situation.

Of course, when there are new options, like the KTM RC390 or Yamaha R3 they are ignored in order to preserve the 250 ninjas...

CCSforums is no direct affiliation with CCS Racing other than using CCS in the forum name and that most of us race with CCS. This site is owned by a CCS racer. I don't even remember if Kevin even has an account on here.

Gino, close. But Thunderbike was HW Sportsman not MW. :)

[Cowboy 6]

I agree with some of your points, but I think you're a little bitter when it comes to the CCS rule book.

Yes I am. I've never said I wasn't so no discovery here. I would love to see more folks come out and have the CCS LW grids up where they used to be. I am not in Florida. Our situation is different here. I know many ex CCS LW riders who either run WERA now, changed class, or just quit racing altogether as a result of said rule book.

I did run a stock 1000DS for 5 years, and the bike was very competitive, even at Datyona where I won the EX LW SS race in '08. At that time the bike to beat was the Buell 1200 and it was a very competitive matchup. Even a well built SV could keep up. And yes I ran it on pump gas with only basic maintenance the whole time.

Thanks for making my point.

The 748/749 argument is complete horse crap, they are allowed in Thunderbike and LWF40.

I NEVER said "all LW classes."  LW F40 is a LW class..... Never said anything about Thunderbike. I think that they (748/749) do indeed belong in that class. The SV does not and is upclassing to run it.

So let me get this straight- the SV is a 15 year old design, you have your own class, SV's still win the majority of LW races in CCS, and still the SV riders are claiming "no fair" because a new Ducati Paul Smart is beating them at Daytona??

Plain answer. No. I have many different bikes including a very potent 1100 DS. From the seat of that bike, I say that it doesn't belong in LW. So your argument of me "having my own class" (as a lowly SV rider) is baseless.

And before Sam chimes in with "LW is ruined because you can't be competitive on a $3,000 SV anymore" let me say this: LW is no more a "budget" class than MW Supersport is. The riders with the newest and best equipment will always have an advantage. You want a fixed budget? 500 Supersport.

Wow... I think there is a real communication issue here. First, LW used to be a great budget class as well as a starting point for riders to determine if racing was for them without getting rides to the ER from the chaos of the MW meatgrinder. You are correct in your description of the current status of CCS LW classes. However, you seem to overlook that many of us have been discussing this issue for YEARS. And,  there was no such animal as 500SS in the first place. In addition, the MW class has always been very volitile as far as machinery goes. You have to plan on getting new bikes all the time to keep up with technology. LW was never like that. Your comparison is false. However, what we do have is someone being able to go out and buy a $40,000 Bimota that comes with every "superbike" option from the factory on a world class chasis and because it has a 2 valve air cooled engine and comes off the showroom floor, it's allowed in LW Supersport. What MW bike fits that description and performance differential? I would propose that it would look a lot like a BMW S1000RR. However, every current 600 still has a world class chasis so the difference is only in HP. And, the BMW is still well under $20,000 so I guess you could buy two? I think that would very much indeed make a great MW pit.


Our position has been that with the small (at the time) rule tweaks we proposed, there would have been no need for the 500 class (it would still be Ultralight) in the first place. And, no one would have to buy a bike (Ninja 300, CBR 500 etc.) that they really wouldn't want to ride on the street in the first place.


Please stop seeing our argument about the CCS LW classes as some sort of complaint. The facts are that certain bikes that are currently allowed in LW are regularly running lap times that would put them in the top five in the MW classes. I own two very fast SVs and a well built 1000DS. I have raced them both. I am here to tell you that the superbike prepped 1100 Ducati is not a good fit in LW. I do this not to "whine or cry" but to try to promote a positive change that will allow others to have a reasonable entry point to our sport that will allow them to learn in a slightly safer environment and still have fun without having to run an anemic 250 (for a full grown adult here).

[Gino230]

Apologize in advance but I don't know how to multi quote....

the MW class has always been very volitile as far as machinery goes. You have to plan on getting new bikes all the time to keep up with technology. LW was never like that.

What about when the SV came out? If you didn't have one, your EX500 or Hawk was getting left in the dust. I agree it doesn't happen as often, because these are not bikes that are constantly updated. If they were, we wouldn't be having the discussion over which 10 year old design is more "fair"

I would love to see more folks come out and have the CCS LW grids up where they used to be. I am not in Florida. Our situation is different here. I know many ex CCS LW riders who either run WERA now, changed class, or just quit racing altogether as a result of said rule book.

At Roebling in March of this year there were 38 bikes in the GTL race. 28 experts and 10 Amateurs. That's more than the WERA GNF! We are running the same rule book as you are, and yet the grids are big. So perhaps it's not the rule book's fault that the grids are smaller where you race?

However, what we do have is someone being able to go out and buy a $40,000 Bimota that comes with every "superbike" option from the factory on a world class chasis and because it has a 2 valve air cooled engine and comes off the showroom floor, it's allowed in LW Supersport.

Not to squabble over $10,000, but the Bimota was $30K in full race trim. I agree that is exorbitant. However, there aren't any that are running LW supersport, are there? And the only one that I know of that has won ANY races lately was at Daytona this year with Robertino Pietri riding. I'm sorry but he would have won on almost anything.

The facts are that certain bikes that are currently allowed in LW are regularly running lap times that would put them in the top five in the MW classes.

Maybe so, and of course there are riders running MW machines who's lap times would place them in the top 5 in the unlimited races. I don't see that as proof of anything.


I don't really get what you mean about the 500 class and LW?


What I do know is that LW rules are always going to be a bit of a mashup. It's not like the 600 class where machines are designed to have some parity. LW is a class that is made up of the "rest of" the machines that are not on par with Middleweights. Of course over time that standard has advanced. Surely you don't propose that we go back to the EX500 days? And I'm sure you wouldn't want to see participation drop even further- sure, we could go back to 800 cc limit on Ducatis, kick the Buells out completely, and basically have the Ultra LW rules for all the LW classes. Do you think that would accomplish your goal of attracting new riders?


I for one think the rules are fine as they are, if someone doesn't want to go into the MW "meat grinder" they can still get the much talked about $3,000 SV, have Ultra LW as their most competitive class, and still be able to race and learn in 4 or 5 other LW classes. Try telling Pony or Lucas Silva you can't win on an SV against the Ducatis and Bimotas.....


Why should we restrict the entire group so that the occasional newbie can be competitive? Racing is not like that. Most people get their start on a less expensive, less competitive machine and move up from there.


Just remember, when it's over out there, we're all on the same team.


Time to buzz the tower.

[jfboothe]

Since I am relatively new to the CCS race scene I was curious about the origins of these lwt discussions. It seems this has been going on since beginning of time. Back in 2006 it was about Buells and BMWs with some Ducati too.

light weight legal bike? http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,14589.15.html

I did like this quote though for 8 years ago...but you have read down through the rest of it.

I think the LW classes provide the most diverse, entertaining and competitive grid in CCS. Liquid-cooled Ninja and SV 650/700s, air-cooled Ducati 900/944/1000s, air-cooled Buell 984/1200s, and air-cooled BMW 1150/1200s. Add GP 125s and 250s for the GP class, and it's a pretty cool mix.

Check the results and you'll see that riders of each of these bikes can and do win LW races (and some bump up and run competitively in Thunderbike and SuperTwins). 

Maybe it's time for you to man up and learn how to ride faster, Mr. Lightweight. You're lucky you have a rider of Nate's caliber to race against and learn from. He will make you faster for chasing him, just as racing against Ed Key in the Midwest region has done for me and many others.