2nd gen SV motor in 1st gen chassis SS legal???

[Grasshopper]

Is it Supersport legal to convert a 2nd gen SV650 motor from injection to carburetors and use it in a 1st gen chassis? The 2nd gen motor has 1st gen ECU and 1st gen pickup which makes it a 1st gen motor. The carbs are stock 1st gen, the airbox is stock and not modified 1st gen. Please advise ASAP. I don't want to get DQ'd at Road America in a couple weeks over some bullshit.

[Grasshopper]

In case anyone is wondering. Not legal. Looks like I'm not racing SS anymore this season.

[roadracer162]

Nicholas,


Why would that stop you from racing CCS? There are many other class that can be run with your bike. That motor with flatslide carbs is a formidable motor.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Mark I think he means he isnt racing supersport.

[Grasshopper]

Yup... Not legal for SS with a motor that is legal for SS in a 2nd gen chassis. If you take that 2nd gen motor and convert it to first gen electronics and carbs and put it in a first gen chassis it is no longer SS legal. One class shaved from my race day. Oh well. I was running too many races anyway. I will still run the bike ULSB.

[LWT Racer]

There is no real difference in power between the motors.  Difference is in carb vs. f.i.   It should be legal.

[Grasshopper]

From Eric...

I believe the 2nd generation motor is a different part number. If it is the same part number from year to year then a different year model part may be used as a replacement part in a part restricted class.
6.1.2 All motorcycles must meet the following requirements in addition to the
applicable requirements in Section 5.
A. Original equipment wheels, brake calipers, forks, frame, engine, fuel
induction system, and swing arm must be used.
IE if wheels from a 2003 and a 1999 are the same part number (color codes do not reflect a different part) then they are legal.

Mixing and matching different year models or makes to create the best bike by use of OEM parts is not allowed in Supersport classes. A part is SS legal if it was part of the ordinal make model year.

Nick,

Okay let’s try this a different way, Are Marchesini wheels a performance advantage? Are Brembo brakes a performance advantage? How about Ohlins forks? Those are all items that have appeared on production street machines; picking and choosing from a parts bin to create a bike makes it a Superbike. The determination of legal on a bike for various classes is by use of the parts’ numbers installed from the factory for that bike.
Mixing and matching a frame and an engine is same scenario, IE the current frame on is not necessarily better than previous model, likewise the engine is not necessarily better. The OEM will tweak frames for better street ride or better race engines power curve for better for 2 up riding, more top end etc which may not be better for the race track, rider style/comfort etc. So combining the better of each, (who determines better?) is not allowed.

[roadracer162]

Thank you Rob, completely missed it.

[twilkinson3]

I actually asked that same question years back and got hte same response so at least things remain consistant over time

[apriliaman]

If your bike comes with a removable subframe you can change it like a SV 650 or FZR 400,FZR 600 it is not removable and your not allowed to cut it and make it lighter.

[grasslander]

There is no real difference in power between the motors.  Difference is in carb vs. f.i.   It should be legal.

Doesn't the Gen 2 have different cam profiles than a Gen 1?

[trace33chargers]

The intakes are different, the exhaust may be a little different too. I'm with Sam, in a SS setup, the power is pretty much the same. A 2nd gen may have a 2hp edge, but in SS the bikes are typically pretty far from stock so I wouldn't say it means anything. Wasn't Ed Key's SS bike around 83hp?

[LWT Racer]

  Doesn't the Gen 2 have different cam profiles than a Gen 1?

Yes, slightly.  But for the real advantage you need to combine both gen's cams.

[Grasshopper]

I understand the reasoning behind why the motor is not legal. Its a mixing and matching of different generation parts. My common sense argument is that the 2nd gen motor is allowed to run in the same class if it's in its proper frame and running its proper induction. The motor is allowed in the class. But by taking that motor and putting it in a 1st gen chassis it makes it illegal. I even asked if I could put the stock first gen cams in it. The answer was still no. Oh well.

[SV88]

Interesting discussion.  A team that beat us in Team Challenge back in 2008 was running an illegal configuration (not sv).  The only way I found out was because this bike was sold to a CMRA member a several months later and I happened to be endurance racing down there on an 05 ex AMA R6.  Unfortunately, it was several months past the protest date and in all fairness they would have beaten us on similar equipment...it just leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth particularly since it was another Canadian...

[backMARKr]

...it just leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth particularly since it was another Canadian...

...because Canadians don't commit unethical acts?

[SV88]

No, we're generally less violent, more fun loving, more courteous, less aggressive than the folks to the south (apart from Detroit).  Of course we beat them @ hockey all the time but that's on a rink..  Case in Point, the Air (Fkg) Born regiment got disbanded after some rogue soldiers in Somalia mistreated some of the local warloards.  Canadians were a little too sensitive in that particular case.  We generally murder each other (at 20% of the US rate) with axes and other bladed instruments instead of handguns.  Canada is generally a better place for most working people but if you're in the top 5-10% of earners in the US...

[LWT Racer]

So what you're saying is blame canada for not allowing 2g motor in 1g chassis SS. :)

[backMARKr]

So what you're saying is blame canada for not allowing 2g motor in 1g chassis SS. :)

What I got was that Canadians are really nice and courteous when bending someone over a chair as opposed to yelling obscenities when committing immoral or unethical acts.


Steve, no offense seriously. I am glad you have a good feeling about your home country but the idea that because Canadians are more polite somehow makes them immune to underhanded dealings is a bit of a stretch.

[Grasshopper]

What is the difference between a Canuck and a canoe?

[roadracer162]

How do these threads end up where they do?

[backMARKr]

How do these threads end up where they do?

It's raining...

[Grasshopper]

Regardless if that bike is SS legal or not the damn thing pulls wicked hard the way its setup. BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!!!!!!!!!!! I took it for a couple 3rd and 4th gear roll on runs last night.

[vnvbandit]

Put a replacement K&N air filter on SS. Get DQ'd. Can't see this engine swap ever getting approved. Just say'n.

[SV88]

In my opinion, It clearly has to do with concentration of people.  When large amounts of people live in close proximity, they get more aggresive, less friendly.  Explains why country people tend to me nicer. 
There are plenty of nasty Canadian also and unfortunately, we do not execute them as some of the better state down here do.  Proportionally, the Canadian murder rate is less than a 10th of what it is in the US.  Having said that, Montreal is the car theft capital but also the best place in NA to get a lap dance!!

[SV88]

or so I'm told...(disclaimer, 5th etc...)

[roadracer162]

Sounds like a lot of assumptions based on conceivable statistics.

[Jwhite316]

I understand the reasoning behind why the motor is not legal. Its a mixing and matching of different generation parts. My common sense argument is that the 2nd gen motor is allowed to run in the same class if it's in its proper frame and running its proper induction. The motor is allowed in the class. But by taking that motor and putting it in a 1st gen chassis it makes it illegal. I even asked if I could put the stock first gen cams in it. The answer was still no. Oh well.

I understand the reasoning behind why the motor is not legal. Its a mixing and matching of different generation parts. My common sense argument is that the 2nd gen motor is allowed to run in the same class if it's in its proper frame and running its proper induction. The motor is allowed in the class. But by taking that motor and putting it in a 1st gen chassis it makes it illegal. I even asked if I could put the stock first gen cams in it. The answer was still no. Oh well.

"SuperSport motorcycles are production machines sold by
manufacturers and their dealers for street use in North America via
normal commercial channels. All machines must have unaltered VIN
numbers. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the machine"
It's not a matter of an advantage....the supersport class in of itself is mainly meant to be a class in which bike modifications are at a minimum.  Would putting a 2nd gen motor into a 1st gen frame give you much of an advantage?  No probably not, but that's not the point.  A stock Buell XB12 has a big HP advantage over a stock SV650, however they are both lightweight supersport legal.  Also without modifications the 2nd Gen SV motor is a stronger package than the 1st Gen motor.  I learned that at RA...

[LWT Racer]

Also without modifications the 2nd Gen SV motor is a stronger package than the 1st Gen motor.  I learned that at RA...

That is not true.  It is stronger because of the F.i.  Put that 2g motor in a 1st gen with carbs... you will have the same basic thing as the 1st gen motor.

[Jwhite316]

That is not true.  It is stronger because of the F.i.  Put that 2g motor in a 1st gen with carbs... you will have the same basic thing as the 1st gen motor.

I don't doubt that, what I meant is 2nd gen w/FI is a stronger overall package than 1st Gen w/carbs

[apriliaman]

2nd gen has better cams and revs to 11,000,on video i've seen it go past it 500 more. 1st gen goes to 10,500 and it stops there.

[apriliaman]

I forgot to say I got video from another rider that had my camera and it was going to 11,500 when it cut off 2nd gen.My first gen 10,500 cuts out so it goes 1,000 rpm more.Mine is stock.

[Grasshopper]

You guys have not read the details about what I did. I took the first gen electronics, pickup, intake boots and carbs and put them on a 2nd gen motor. The only difference are the cams. With the setup I have the motor will not turn 11,500 because the brain box won't let it. It's carbed. If I took the 2nd gen cams out and put first gen cams in it would be the exact same as a first gen motor. No ifs ands or buts.

[MAZZ77X]

Just run it and forget about it then. 

[trace33chargers]

The only difference are the cams.

There is more than just cams. I just think that is the only part that will make a noticeable difference. Cranks are different, better clutch, lighter rods, lighter starter sprag, additional vents in cases and I'm sure there is more. There are a lot of little differences in there that make the engines different.

[MACOP1104]

I forgot to say I got video from another rider that had my camera and it was going to 11,500 when it cut off 2nd gen.My first gen 10,500 cuts out so it goes 1,000 rpm more.Mine is stock.

The 2nd gen tach is routinely off by 1100rpm.  The dyno shows both 1st and 2nd gen hit the rev limiter at about 10,400rpm. 

[apriliaman]

Ok that's cool.I don't know much about the small details of the 2nd gen engine.

[vnvbandit]

It's still not legal, and should not be. Might as well put a duc motor in there, because that motor is legal in the light weight class. imho

[LWT Racer]

It's still not legal, and should not be. Might as well put a duc motor in there, because that motor is legal in the light weight class. imho

....... wha..b...um... who......what?

It should be legal and i'm sure people do it with out even thinking about it because the motors are so close.  It is still a SV that will make same power.   If they are going to allow after market subframes, masters and bunch of other things in SS... putting in basically the same motor shouldn't matter. Hell all CCS cares about is the damn airbox.

[vnvbandit]

Close isn't the same. You have plenty of classes to race now anyway. This would add to higher costs to compete. The light weight classes are getting expensive enough without having to change engines to be competitive.

[apriliaman]

There are no rules about a fuel tank.So if you want you can put a carbon fiber tank if you want to.Which should not be allowed.

[Cowboy 6]

I don't get it... is someone afraid that a G1 will have the same power as a G2? 

With all the claims that a G2 is a better bike... what are you afraid of?   LOL!

[LWT Racer]

Close isn't the same. You have plenty of classes to race now anyway. This would add to higher costs to compete. 

Obviously close isn't "the same".

How exactly would allowing a 2g motor in 1g chassis add to higher cost?  If anything it would lower cost because you have more options for motors and motor parts.  There is no advantage of one motor over the other... unless we add in the dual plug SV's which suck but that wont be swapped into 1g with out putting on 99-06 heads which are the same.  The only advantage is actually in the 1g motor, and that is in the crank and rods.  Crank in 1g is stronger then 2g, less likely to snap so if you can run 1g motor in 2g, that would lower cost since you have less chance of blowing motor.  Rods in 1g are also better then 2g, again like the crank, are stronger. They do not snap like 2g rods, just bend.  I understand why a swap isn't legal, but power output wise, CCS shouldn't care.  You can get 80hp out of either gen SS legal.

[Farmboy]

SVs suck. Ducatis rule.

[bruce71198]

SVs suck. Ducatis rule.

Says the retired guy...

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

SVs suck. Ducatis rule.

Only in front of Starbucks.

[roadracer162]

So let me get this right, exchanging cams in the first gen is against the rules but swapping motors is not? I have seen a few SV competitors run the second gen motor in their first gen frame. They typically report 80 rwhp where so many first gen SV riders claim they only get 72 rwhp.

Super sport for CCS is not stock. CCS allows more performance upgrades than WERA. I am not comparing WERA to CCS to say when is better than the other. I believe when most people hear super sport they automatically think stock. Instead the title super stock would be more appropriate for a stock class.

There are a lot of these rules that don't make a lot of sense to me, but I am not running the organization. One of those most recent is the modern day GSXR 600 running as a 565cc in LW GP and GT lights, but there is no provision for the same on a Ducati 748.

For me personally I run the older machinery and have been always on the shitty end of the rule book. I most frequently hear, "if you don't like the rule get rid of your bike and buy something competitive." I guess the same applies to the SV crowd here. If you want more power, if you want a bigger rear tire, if you want(insert whatever) then sell your SV and buy a Ducati. It is nothing different than what has happened to the bikes before the SV.

P.S. I still have my FZR 400 and its now Ultralight, oh yeah the SV is also.