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Overall Points Rule

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Falco

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Overall Points Rule
« on: August 30, 2012, 02:39:47 pm »
Currently racers can score overall points in any race they enter as long the equipment is qualified to run in that race.  This rule gives an unfair advantage to the racers with middle-weight and to an extent ultra-weight motorcycles since they can race “up” in a class and score points.  This is particularly unfair with the smaller grids we are experiencing in the last few years. 
I propose a simple rule.  Highest ranked racer is the one who accumulates the most points in a single class. 

Basically, at the end of the season points of each class champions are compared and the one with most points is the overall “number 1”.  This is also not perfect because some classes regularly have one or two participants; however, it is much more fair than the current practice.  It will also encourage racers to enter the races with the smaller grids.

This will not however discourage racers from racing up.  They will still race and ranked well and possibly win few more classes.
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supercarl

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Re: Overall Points Rule
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2012, 03:44:48 pm »
Interesting idea, but I'd like to bring up a few concerns.

I think if CCS went this direction there would be alot of ties. Some classes have one fast guy that usually wins every race. As such, I think there would be a few classes where riders get the maximum number of points possible resulting in a tie.

Also, with this proposed rule, a rider would pretty much have no hope to win the overall if they missed one race weekend due to mechanical or some other issue. With the current system there is at least some leeway to make up for issues like this.

I think the current system is better suited because it uses the performance index which ranks riders skill. If you didnt have this you could have a rider that wins the overall just because they won a small class with few riders or simply less talented riders even though there might be other more talented riders out there racing in more competitive classes.

You said that the current system "gives an unfair advantage to the racers with middle-weight and to an extent ultra-weight motorcycles since they can race “up” in a class and score points." However in my opinion, I do not believe this to be true. Its true that smaller bike have the ability to race up and potentially score more points, but they are at a speed disadvantage when they do this negating any unfair advantage. If the riders are of equal talent a higher horsepower bike should win against a lower horsepower bike everytime. And since overall points are multiplied by Performance index as well, it actually hurts alot of riders to ride up because they tend to place lower and thus lower their PI and thus their total points. For the most part this PI system takes away any advantage the smaller bikes may have.

I believe that the overall points champion should be the racer who on average raced the most races with the best results.  A rider who takes 10/10 1st's shouldnt beat a rider who took 20/20 1st's. Right? Lets say a lightweight rider enters just one lightweight class and wins every race for the season. Then lets say a middleweight rider enters multiple classes and wins every race for all those classes. In your system they would tie. which I dont think is fair because the rider that did more races showed greater consistency in his racing.
 
Now dont get me wrong, I dont believe the current system is perfect, but I think it would be better than going off just one class. Just my opinion. I appreciate your idea!
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Falco

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Re: Overall Points Rule
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2012, 04:45:46 pm »
Carl,
I appreciate your opinion and value your comments very much.

 Interesting idea, but I'd like to bring up a few concerns.
 
 I think if CCS went this direction there would be alot of ties. Some classes have one fast guy that usually wins every race. As such, I think there would be a few classes where riders get the maximum number of points possible resulting in a tie.

 
 Ties are easily broken.  Racer with most wins takes the overall championship, just like a tie in the pro world.  There is also a performance index as a tie breaker.
 
 

 Also, with this proposed rule, a rider would pretty much have no hope to win the overall if they missed one race weekend due to mechanical or some other issue. With the current system there is at least some leeway to make up for issues like this.

 
 I see your point, however, championships are won on consistency, and yes if someone missed a race it is part of racing.  It could happened to their competitors as well.  Same rules for everyone.

 
 

 You said that the current system "gives an unfair advantage to the racers with middle-weight and to an extent ultra-weight motorcycles since they can race “up” in a class and score points." However in my opinion, I do not believe this to be true. Its true that smaller bike have the ability to race up and potentially score more points, but they are at a speed disadvantage when they do this negating any unfair advantage. If the riders are of equal talent a higher horsepower bike should win against a lower horsepower bike everytime. And since overall points are multiplied by Performance index as well, it actually hurts alot of riders to ride up because they tend to place lower and thus lower their PI and thus their total points. For the most part this PI system takes away any advantage the smaller bikes may have.
 

 
 I also disagree with this.  At least in the Midwest you have a number of Middleweight guys running MW, HW and UNL classes and winning or finishing at the top.  I have no problems with their wins but points should not be combined because UNL and HW guys can't race down and are in disadvantage which of course is not possible.  Case in point:  Current leaders in Midwest HW are Justin Conolly, Jacob Damask and Carl Soltisz all 600cc racers.  Carl is also currently 3rd in UNL SS and SBK all on a gorgeous R6.
 
 
I believe that the overall points champion should be the racer who on average raced the most races with the best results.  A rider who takes 10/10 1st's shouldnt beat a rider who took 20/20 1st's. Right? Lets say a lightweight rider enters just one lightweight class and wins every race for the season. Then lets say a middleweight rider enters multiple classes and wins every race for all those classes. In your system they would tie. which I dont think is fair because the rider that did more races showed greater consistency in his racing.
 
 Now dont get me wrong, I dont believe the current system is perfect, but I think it would be better than going off just one class. Just my opinion. I appreciate your idea!
 

I appreciate a debate and all suggestions.  After all this is just my opinion.  As I said, ties could be easily broken by either number of wins, performance index, or simply by the number of championships.  For an example:  If a class champion who does 10/10 1st is compared with a racer who did 18/20 1st then the rider with most overall wins gets the title.
 
 
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supercarl

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Re: Overall Points Rule
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2012, 06:20:50 pm »
You bring up a good point about the ties, they can easily be broken with a suggestion like you gave. I withdraw that previous concern.


With regards to the 2nd statement about consistency and mechanical issues, i hear what you're saying. You're right that everyone would have the same risk, but I believe your suggestion would cause a missed race/crash to much more heavily affect the points then the current system. I wouldn't want one crash to dash out my hopes for the overall. I would hope that there would be a little more room to recover from this. Do you think your system would put too much emphasis on a DNF?


About the MW guys bumping up... I am a little biased because I am very guilty of this. I run every class I can on my 600 and like you pointed out, I'm finishing pretty well. However I'd like to counter a few things you brought up. First, I wonder how many 750's are actually running in heavyweight? It seems to me that most riders are on 600 bikes in that class anyway. But I can't say for sure. I'd also like to point out that Erdmann, a unlimited racer, also runs in lightweight classes on a separate bike. so he can actually "bump down" and get some points there as I'm sure other racers could too with other bikes. I think if someone on a smaller bike is bumping up to bigger bike classes and they're still winning, they deserve it because they are more skilled.


To me it basically comes down to one thing. I'm worried that someone could win the overall thanks to a less competitive class, while a better rider in a more competitive class could lose out on it simply because the competition is greater. I believe that the overall best rider should win and for that to happen I think all classes need to be taken into account to accurately determine rider skill. If someone feels as though they won't be competitive in a certain class, they might want to get another bike. (unrealistic I know  ::) )


I will say the current system is slightly unfair because you can just pay for alot of classes and build points that way. But I do feel the PI does a decent job of negating that. Its just not perfect. Also one specific thing I do not like about the current system is u can actually lose points in the overall standings by DNFing or something, which lowers your PI and then drops your points. I dont think you should be able to lose points in a weekend. Maybe just gain nothing, but not lose points.


Your bring up good points and appreciate the drive to improve on this current system. I would like to improve on it as well! Hopefully we can figure out some good suggestions that everyone will agree on  :cheers:




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Cowboy 6

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Re: Overall Points Rule
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2012, 08:30:53 am »
I know everyone hates math but... Falco is on target with his issue.

Racer "A" on a 1000cc wins every race in a ten race season he/she will have a total of 350 pts after a 100% index.

Racer "B" on a 600cc comes in third every race but races both middleweight and heavyweight for a total of 20 races, he/she will have amassed 375 points even with a .75 index applied.

The bottom line is, of the two, the racer who never finished above third all season is the #1 plate holder having never won a race. While the rider who won every race entered settles for 2nd or less.

You can overcome the performance index by throwing sheer numbers at the equation and finishing decently near the top. This is what happens with the 600s as they can run and be competitive (sorry, have to tell the truth here) in three complete class sets for a total of 12 events per weekend while a 1000 is only eligible for 4.

 I am a lightweight guy so I have no dog in this fight. However, I don't like discussions that revolve around perceptions and assumptions with no one ever doing the actual math.
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supercarl

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Re: Overall Points Rule
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2012, 02:12:44 pm »
You bring up some more valid points but I dont think your calculation for "rider B" is fair. You can't assume a PI for any finishes other than a dead last or a 1st place finish becuase the PI depends on the number of racers entered in each class. With a race of 5 riders, someone who comes in third would have a lower PI than a rider who comes in third with a race of 10 riders. To get a higher PI without coming in first you have to beat alot more people.

Lets say rider A wins every race but theres only 10 riders in his class. Rider B comes in 3rd but out of 100 riders. That thrid place actually sounds more impressive to me in that case. I'm all about rewarding the better rider for the overall, the question is just how to determine that accurately.  If that middleweight ridder bumps up and beats the 1000cc rider most of the time shouldnt he get the overall?

Also btw A MW rider can only run 10 classes a weekend. which let me tell you is no easy task to begin with. running that many races tires you out and hurts consitency.
(GTU, MW SS, MW SB, MW GP, HW SS, HW SB, UNL SS, GTO, UNL SB, UNL GP)
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