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Author Topic: Tire Life Question  (Read 7483 times)

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Super Dave

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Re: Tire Life Question
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2012, 03:23:50 pm »
Are you working with TSE yet?  Start.

Money on tires is never thrown away.  If you use them less, you can sell them to someone because they might still have some real value to someone else when they're not shot.  If one's focus was on getting faster and faster, without budget constraints, then you'd go out every time on new tires.  Period.  Because then you'd build a set up based upon excellent traction, and, when it does let loose a little, it's still driving forward. 

Often, when you run your tires down too far, there so little rubber that the issue is keeping heat in the tire.  So, you start your race after the tires being on warmers for whatever period, then they loose heat during the race because there isn't enough insulation to keep heat in.  The tire drops below the temperature it is supposed to function at, and the performance drops off.  Often, that isn't so bad on a "track day" tire as it is thicker, thus holding heat in because the "blanket" is thicker.  Materials of construction are another issue, but keep this simple. 

So, "making it stiffer"... 

A spring has a rate.  You really don't make it stiffer.  You might compress it, and that starts the travel in a different place.  Compression and rebound...that's more about speed of compression or rebound.  If those are overcoming the spring rate, then you've got problems all their own.

Let's say you've got the right spring for new tires.  New tires are going to generate more traction loads than used.  Thus, the new tire is going to compress the springs with that traction load, be it braking, accelerating, or turning...or all of them together.  As the tire wears, it won't generate that load.  Then the rate of that spring can be too much, and the worn tire spins too early.  When the tire spins, it releases the compression of the spring...and that alters geometry under load.  That affects your steering, weight distribution, consistency, ability to save it when it gets strange...
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supercarl

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Re: Tire Life Question
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2012, 08:50:44 am »
Are you working with TSE yet?  Start.

Thanks for the advice. I'll talk with the TSE guys this upcoming weekend and see what I can learn.
 
Money on tires is never thrown away.  If you use them less, you can sell them to someone because they might still have some real value to someone else when they're not shot.  If one's focus was on getting faster and faster, without budget constraints, then you'd go out every time on new tires.  Period.  Because then you'd build a set up based upon excellent traction, and, when it does let loose a little, it's still driving forward. 

This is pretty helpful. I'm slowly starting to understand tires more and more. Based on what you said I think my new plan will be to replace tires every chance I get during a race weekend. Then I can just sell tires that still have life left or use them for practice/trackdays. If contingecy dries up that may change though haha. Hopefully by running new tires more often I can get a more consitsent set-up and feel.
 
So, "making it stiffer"... 

A spring has a rate.  You really don't make it stiffer.  You might compress it, and that starts the travel in a different place.  Compression and rebound...that's more about speed of compression or rebound.  If those are overcoming the spring rate, then you've got problems all their own.

Let's say you've got the right spring for new tires.  New tires are going to generate more traction loads than used.  Thus, the new tire is going to compress the springs with that traction load, be it braking, accelerating, or turning...or all of them together.  As the tire wears, it won't generate that load.  Then the rate of that spring can be too much, and the worn tire spins too early.  When the tire spins, it releases the compression of the spring...and that alters geometry under load.  That affects your steering, weight distribution, consistency, ability to save it when it gets strange...

I understand the spring rate and the fact that new tires are going to generate more load, but I'm unsure on the adjustments for compression and rebound with the new tires. From what Ive gathered it appears that with newer tires you would want to go in with compression and rebound while you would go out as the tires are gettting used due to less traction. Is this a correct statement? does it vary on the forks vs the rear shock? Right now I have the sag and preload set on my bike for me. Spring rate is also correct for my weight. Ive tried adjusting compression and rempound before but Its hard for me to notice the results.
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Super Dave

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Re: Tire Life Question
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2012, 12:22:35 pm »
Thanks for the advice. I'll talk with the TSE guys this upcoming weekend and see what I can learn.
Talk to Scotty.  Tell him Super Dave sent you.  Talk.  Build a relationship.  It's gonna be twenty questions all the time, but you'll learn in the process too.
 
Based on what you said I think my new plan will be to replace tires every chance I get during a race weekend.
Fresher's faster!
 
Right now I have the sag and preload set on my bike for me. Spring rate is also correct for my weight. Ive tried adjusting compression and rempound before but Its hard for me to notice the results.
Well, first, what the heck is "sag and preload set on bike for me"? 

Spring rate is a thing.  Yes, there's a window.  But sag is a tool.  Using it as a concept of "I run it at 35mm" is not correct.  While you might have a set up for Blackhawk, I wouldn't directly run a Blackhawk set up at Road America.  T6 creates some specific problems in addition to the corners being fast.  One can get real results by changing sag settings. 

At some places, a spring rate change is good too. 

These are some things Scotty can work with you on. 

10's and 11's...  Look towards those.  :)
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supercarl

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Re: Tire Life Question
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2012, 12:58:14 pm »
Well, first, what the heck is "sag and preload set on bike for me"? 

Well at the begining of the season at RA the Turn one guys helped me set the sag/preload on my bike. You know, measuring forks both on and off the bike and then setting it correctly etc. I didnt realize that you were ever supposed to change it though. I thought once you set it for your weight you just leave it alone. Just one more thing I need to mess with now haha  ::)
 
Ill def talk everything over with TSE at the track though and let em know you referred me  :cheers: . Im sure it will help alot. I'll have this suspension stuff mastered one day haha
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Super Dave

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Re: Tire Life Question
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2012, 01:04:59 pm »
Just one more thing I need to mess with now haha  ::)
Don't worry, the longer you involve yourself in this, the more things you mess with approaches infinity...  :)


Ill def talk everything over with TSE at the track though and let em know you referred me  :cheers: . Im sure it will help alot. I'll have this suspension stuff mastered one day haha
Mastering is hard.  Just try to find a handle to hang onto it.  :)
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Re: Tire Life Question
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2012, 03:22:57 pm »
Alright new plan. Im going to go really really fast and get a factory ride so a pit crew can do it all for me :D haha if only.
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Re: Tire Life Question
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2012, 03:26:14 pm »
Alright new plan. Im going to go really really fast and get a factory ride so a pit crew can do it all for me :D haha if only.
Gotta have goals...  Don't let yourself stand in the way of you shooting for the stars.  It's not easy, and you might not get all the way there, but the journey has some pretty sweet scenery...
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Re: Tire Life Question
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2012, 10:21:02 am »
Well said! I'm taking the scenic route  :biggrin:   :cheers:
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Re: Tire Life Question
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2012, 08:00:51 am »
Alright new plan. Im going to go really really fast and get a factory ride so a pit crew can do it all for me :D haha if only.

I saw few guys helping you out last weekend.  Don't take that for granted, my wife finally figured out how to put my front stand on after 2 yrs :biggrin: The next goal is training her to turn the Gopro on and off. 

Dave pretty much said it all.  You will never know the exact time to change tires.  You can either jeopardize a few dollars by changing too soon or jeopardize a lot of dollars and your safety by changing too late.  Depending of if Joe is racing or not, you can buy him lunch and he might be able to give you a hand at a fast tire swap. 
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Re: Tire Life Question
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2012, 02:40:40 pm »
I saw few guys helping you out last weekend.  Don't take that for granted, my wife finally figured out how to put my front stand on after 2 yrs :biggrin: The next goal is training her to turn the Gopro on and off. 

haha its funny you say that. I just taught my friend Stephanie how to do the Go Pro that weekend! Shes actually got it down no problem. She even has the stands mastered too, but still struggles with the tire warmers :biggrin: This is her attempting to help with a tire change... :ahhh:

And luckily for me everyone with CCS is so dang cool! I had Kurt help me change rains to DOTs last weekend at BFR and it saved my butt and got me a win. I wasnt going to because I only had like 5 min, but he helped and we got it done just in time. Plus Kolin and the Turn one guys helped me rebuild my bike in 10 min after a crash the weekend before that.  :cheers:
 
That being said I'm sure if Joe cant help me with a quick tire change Im sure someone else will. I'll probably owe everyone at that track a lunch/beer by the end of the season haha!
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Jwhite316

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Re: Tire Life Question
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2012, 03:26:55 pm »
I got into the 13's, but not the 12's yet. Hoping to hit that next weekend!  :cheers:  I was just using 14-15 as an average.
 
But I see what your saying with the cost of everything. The issue for me is not actually cost of tires. Im doing well enough now that I have plenty of tire money so Im not super budget constrained like I was before, but I still dont want to throw away money on tires if I dont need to. The issue for me is just understanding that fine line of when to change tires so I'm not doing it early and being wasteful or I'm not doing it late and risking a crash/slower laptimes. I just need a better feel for reading my tires. Im sure it will become more aparent as I get faster. I think I'm just too slow now to have a good idea  ::)
 
As far as chassis set-up, what kind of things do you do to adjust for new tires vs old? Im thinking that if I dont have time to change tires throughout the day I should maybe adjust settings to account for tire wear between races. It would also be beneficial to know how to set up for new tires so I could get fast laps on the important races. I assume just run it a little stiffer?

The nice about Blackhawk is that its a mostly right turn course.  We usually flip ours, we run pirellis though not sure if the stones react differently....either way it seems to work okay and it will extend your tire life a bit. 
Well how could there be two number 1's? It'd be number 11 then?