The rules have been handed down, 250 SS will NOT happen for 2012........

Started by Jiggyfly, February 21, 2012, 01:02:21 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What say ye?

Yes, I'm in on a "gentlemans" supersport
9 (81.8%)
No, cuz if ONE person shows up with a HP advantage & wins......
2 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Voting closed: March 02, 2012, 01:02:21 PM

Jiggyfly

Here's my take: the results are in, & there won't be a change to ULTB this year. As much as I'd like to see it happen, it's not likely, & I understand why at this point. I'm up for running my motor as SUPERSPORT as the rules say...... But it's a tough "agreement", as many people don't visit this forum.

Discuss & input.

MAZZ77X

Were in on the Gents agreement.

Our bike is 100% Stock with only a pipe and jet kit and it will stay that way.

We do have a 75lb pilot though so that may help :thumb:

CHIRINOM

I intend on doing ZERO modifications to the engine or chasis. Pipe, Jetting, Suspension, Ergonomics via controls, Gearing, Brake lines and pads. I am prepared to run the class as it was advertised in 2011. Sucks for you if you need engine work to win lol.

Looking forward to RRR! I hear Walter just picked up a bike for his wife today.
Miguel Chirino
SPECCLASSRACING.com

vance

I'm in.  Bike was piped and jetted by Walter before I owned it and runs fine.  It MIGHT get a coat of paint... :biggrin:


Anyone have HD's email?  Can't find it on the CCS site.

Tri74x

hdpromos at aol dot com. I'm in- and believe me I'm on a budget for the rebuild. She'll be a tad slower for sure but hopefully no more massive failures either.

vance

Jason,
What times were you running at Homestead?
Also, check out mylaps for the Tally results of the ESS class:


http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=2173961


11 bikes on the grid and one DNS....
in the RAIN....
in FEBRUARY!!!!






Tri74x

I don't know. I'd have to e-mail to get them- seems like alot of trouble. What is the ESS? Used to race V1 and V2 but haven't kept up w/ WERA. The Triumph can do 1:15 and the Honda about a second slower there but I think the track is different now. Got a buddy on an ascot who went and said the rain sucked! He got a second though.

vance


roadracer162

Can I race a Hyosung GT250 or would I get laughed out of the track?

Mark
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

apriliaman

you can race that,even street legal supermoto 250 if you want.Bike has to be street legal 4 stroke.
single cylinder 250 4 stroke
twin cylinder 250 4 stroke
twin cylinder air cooled 350 4 stroke
Winner of at least 50 CCS Lightweight Regional Championships
3 National Championships
Top 10 plate holder since 2006

bruce71198

Unless you want to run a GP chassis, they're legal too;

             
6.10 THUNDERBIKE [/size]- Thunderbike machines are based upon production models, sold
by manufacturers and their dealers in North America for street use. Proof of compliance
rests with the competitor entering the motorcycle. Single cylinder and 250 GP[/b]
machines are exempt from production and street use requirements. [/size]. All machines

must have unaltered VIN numbers.

vance

I just pre-registered for the last 9 FL rounds.  All we can do is put bikes on the grid.  If everyone does what they can to support the class, we'll have a strong argument at the end of the season.
The GP argument should be moot as we are gridded behind the 125GP race.  The Moriwaki's will be gridded at the same time, so as long as that remains the same, it shouldn't matter.
If guys build a bunch of supermotos then so be it.  If I had to guess, more people will pick up a cheap 250, put a belly pan on it and go racing before they'll build a supermoto, but that's just my opinion. 


The opening round for WERA at Tally had 11 250's on the grid.  We need to do the same, regardless of what other bikes show up for the class.  At the end of the year, if we can point to a steady grid of 250's then our gripe will have merit.
Let's get it done.

CHIRINOM

Quote from: bruce71198 on February 22, 2012, 04:45:55 PM
Unless you want to run a GP chassis, they're legal too;

             
6.10 THUNDERBIKE [/size]- Thunderbike machines are based upon production models, sold
by manufacturers and their dealers in North America for street use. Proof of compliance
rests with the competitor entering the motorcycle. Single cylinder and 250 GP[/b]
machines are exempt from production and street use requirements. [/size]. All machines

must have unaltered VIN numbers.


That is where the gentleman's agreement comes into play, Bruce. Lets keep it simple. I say we run it like the 2011 rules were written.
Miguel Chirino
SPECCLASSRACING.com

775

Im totaly in on the gentlemen's agreement, both mine and my wife's bikes will be SS with intact engines.
I think its a great idea to use the 2011 class rules and It would be nice to post them here as well as on the spec class racing facebook page, Miguel?
And to Mark #22, I won't lough at the giosung but I will lough at the guy who shows up with a "world superbike kind of" ninja 250 because this clas is ment to be a budget class, "wanna be a hi roller? Get a bimota".

CHIRINOM

Quote from: 775 on February 26, 2012, 01:03:47 AM
Im totaly in on the gentlemen's agreement, both mine and my wife's bikes will be SS with intact engines.
I think its a great idea to use the 2011 class rules and It would be nice to post them here as well as on the spec class racing facebook page, Miguel?
And to Mark #22, I won't lough at the giosung but I will lough at the guy who shows up with a "world superbike kind of" ninja 250 because this clas is ment to be a budget class, "wanna be a hi roller? Get a bimota".

Here is a link to the 2011 Rules. It was newly added 05/04/2011. Due to technical difficulties I am unable to copy and paste from a PDF at this moment.

Addendum 3, pages 55-56.
www.ccsracing.us/forms/2011/rules/2011%20asra-ccs%20rulebook.pdf




Miguel Chirino
SPECCLASSRACING.com

CHIRINOM

Quote from: CHIRINOM on February 26, 2012, 06:21:57 PM
Here is a link to the 2011 Rules. It was newly added 05/04/2011. Due to technical difficulties I am unable to copy and paste from a PDF at this moment.

Addendum 3, pages 55-56.
www.ccsracing.us/forms/2011/rules/2011%20asra-ccs%20rulebook.pdf






ADDENDUM 3 - Ultralight ThunderBike -
3.1 Ultralight ThunderBike - This class will be run at selected events. Ultralight ThunderBike
motorcycles are production machines sold by manufacturers and their dealers
for street use in North America via normal commercial channels. All machines must have
unaltered VIN numbers. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the machine.
3.1.1 Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for
street use in North America via normal commercial channels may be
approved on an individual basis. CCS will maintain a list of non-standard
approved models and that list will be available at each event from the
Race Director.
A. CCS reserves the right to re-factor machines at any time. CCS will
notify current licensees 30 days prior to any change. Changes will
take effect 30 days from the original date of notification.
3.1.2 All motorcycles must meet the following requirements in addition to the
applicable requirements in Section 5.
A. Original equipment wheels, brake calipers, forks, frame, engine, fuel
induction system, and swing arm must be used.
(1) 18" wheels may be replaced with 17" wheels of the same width.
(2) 16" wheels may be replaced with 17" wheels of the same width.
(3) Rear swing arms on OEM Belt drive motorcycles may be
replaced to convert final drive assembly from belt to chain drive.
B. Aftermarket brake rotors may be used but must be the same
dimensions as the originals and must be made of a ferrous material.
Non-current motorcycles may use brake rotors up to the same size
as those that come as original equipment on the current model machine.
(1.) Aftermarket brake cooling ducts or wind deflectors are prohibited
in Ultralight ThunderBike.
C. Any fairing may be used provided meets the requirements in Section 5..
D. Original equipment air box must remain as produced. Air filters must
be used but may be Aftermarket units. Aftermarket air filters are
restricted to units available via normal commercial channels and
designed to mount in the stock location for that specific model
machine. Aftermarket air filter units that replace part of the OEM. air
box are required to maintain the original size and number of air inlet
openings as the stock unit.
E. Engine modifications include the following:
(1.) Pistons which are no larger than 1mm over stock size may be
used but must be same compression ratio as the OEM piston.
(2.) Original equipment cylinders must be used.
(3.) Original equipment head, valves, and cams must remain as
produced, with the exception of machining the gasket surface of
55
the cylinder head.
(4.) Original equipment cases, crankshaft, and connecting rods must
remain as produced.
(5.) Original equipment transmission gears must be used.
(6.) Carburetor bodies and/or throttle bodies may not be modified,
bored, or polished.
F. Internal engine modifications on all single cylinder machines,
4-stroke twin cylinder machines with less than 4 valves per cylinder
produced prior to the 1999 model year and all twin cylinder machines
produced prior to the 1994 model year are unlimited, provided class
displacement limits are not exceeded.
G. Aftermarket carburetors may be used on single cylinder machines,
all 4-stroke twin cylinder machines with less than 4 valves per
cylinder, and all twin cylinder 4-stroke machines produced prior to the
1994 model year. 6.1.2. D. is waived for single cylinder and all twin
cylinder 4-stroke machines produced prior to the 1999 model year.
H. Tires must be DOT approved.
(1.) If the Race Director declares a "Wet" event, commercially available
rain tires may be used in place of DOT approved tires for the
remainder of that race day.
Miguel Chirino
SPECCLASSRACING.com

Vitamin-E

Quote from: Jiggyfly on February 21, 2012, 01:02:21 PM
Here's my take: the results are in, & there won't be a change to ULTB this year. As much as I'd like to see it happen, it's not likely, & I understand why at this point. I'm up for running my motor as SUPERSPORT as the rules say...... But it's a tough "agreement", as many people don't visit this forum.

Discuss & input.

I'm down for a SuperSport rule set for this class.  As far as a Genteman's Agreement goes, I guess.  But I think SS rules should be written down and enforced (it looks like that's what the 2011 rules are...?).  Why would we want a class for 250s to degenerate into a high-buck 250 Superbike class??  Isn't the affordability and rider development of this class one of its main calling cards!!??  Could the WERA E-SS rules be copied and pasted so that bikes are multi-series legal??

I haven't raced with you guys in a long time but I'll prolly make a few rounds this year on the Ninja 250.

CHIRINOM

Quote from: Vitamin-E on February 27, 2012, 09:21:14 PM
I'm down for a SuperSport rule set for this class.  As far as a Genteman's Agreement goes, I guess.  But I think SS rules should be written down and enforced (it looks like that's what the 2011 rules are...?).  Why would we want a class for 250s to degenerate into a high-buck 250 Superbike class??  Isn't the affordability and rider development of this class one of its main calling cards!!??  Could the WERA E-SS rules be copied and pasted so that bikes are multi-series legal??

I haven't raced with you guys in a long time but I'll prolly make a few rounds this year on the Ninja 250.

I agree. We should definitely be prepared to submit a set of rules when the rules committe meets again.  CCS has aknowledged the interest that riders have to run the class under Super Sport rules. They state that they will re consider the rules for 2013 given there is participation.

We need to show numbers.

Miguel Chirino
SPECCLASSRACING.com

Drew424

I'm searching for my 250 while up in Atlanta later this month - I'm totally in on not touching the engine...

vance

I agree with vitamin-e with making the rules very similar, if not identical, to WERA's is a good idea.  In the FL region alone, we should be able to pick up a few guys for the JGP and RRR rounds even if the GA boys aren't willing to drive all the way down to South FL.


After reading both sets, I think the only difference involves the wiring harness.
Air box and wheel size has already been addressed in both

CHIRINOM

#20
Hey guys I am resurrecting the thread as it has been a year since we agreed to run the gentleman's agreement due to the rule changes in 2012. From what I saw at the races, 2012 was a huge success. The racing was close with several different winners, we had added riders every round, numerous wild card riders aboard rented and borrowed bikes, and a large amount of interest from other riders looking to join in.

As 2013 is quickly approaching, It is time to provide your input to CCS about any rules suggestions that you may have. Per Erick Kelcher, CCS is open to hearing our suggestions and requested that any rules suggestions should be forwarded to info@CCSracing.com.

I have spoken to many of the Ultra Light Thunder bike riders and submitted a rules proposal based upon what the majority of riders with whom I spoke requested. While not all inclusive, I believe that it captures what we agreed to run under the gentleman's agreement with a few additions as we have learned about along the way. Please see the proposed rules below. If you have any additional input, please forward your request to CCS.

I am looking forward to racing with all of you in 2013!

Miguel Chirino
SPECCLASSRACING.com

Tri74x

I think you've got a good start here, but if I may- please allow me to make some observations. Fuel testing and weighing machines could be problematic. Takes time, costs money, would be a PIA to CCS officials. First the fuel: if some ding-dong puts $20/gal. rocket fuel into his legal standard compression motor, let him. He'll make less power, go slower, and have less money. Since you're proposing no engine modifications, this makes fuel choice moot. Did you mean 94 octane? Need to keep rules simple... Weight: what's the number? Where should you add weight to the machine? What if your only 1 Lb. over? Again, overly complex and would always be a point of contention amongst racers. We're not grooming future GP stars here... read USGPRU rules if you really want to go down this road.

Allowable upgrades seem well thought out and reasonable.

For additional modifications: I'd think you'd better at least allow one overbore? Let's say you ran a couple seasons and its time to overhaul the motor- Or, you had some internal failure. You would be stuck sourcing another stock cylinder vs. just getting a good hone/bore and a set of +.020 pistons. To be honest, I don't know- maybe these parts are cheap and plentiful? Just seems a waste to "throw away" a good cylinder in effort to keep OEM displacement. And really, another 4 cc's ain't going to help you get past the 85lb. kid. My leathers weigh more than that!

Oh, and where's the air-cooled 350's?!?!? :biggrin:

MAZZ77X

I like it.

Keep the costs down and the class will grow. We just need to get everyone to drop their egos and give the 250 a chance. Ridden at full race pace these bikes are a pure blast and can teach anyone a lot about going fast at any track! Worked great for my son and he never smiles like he does after a good Ninja 250 battle! 8)

CHIRINOM

Quote from: Tri74x on November 13, 2012, 12:17:48 PM
I think you've got a good start here, but if I may- please allow me to make some observations. Fuel testing and weighing machines could be problematic. Takes time, costs money, would be a PIA to CCS officials. First the fuel: if some ding-dong puts $20/gal. rocket fuel into his legal standard compression motor, let him. He'll make less power, go slower, and have less money. Since you're proposing no engine modifications, this makes fuel choice moot. Did you mean 94 octane? Need to keep rules simple... Weight: what's the number? Where should you add weight to the machine? What if your only 1 Lb. over? Again, overly complex and would always be a point of contention amongst racers. We're not grooming future GP stars here... read USGPRU rules if you really want to go down this road.

Allowable upgrades seem well thought out and reasonable.

For additional modifications: I'd think you'd better at least allow one overbore? Let's say you ran a couple seasons and its time to overhaul the motor- Or, you had some internal failure. You would be stuck sourcing another stock cylinder vs. just getting a good hone/bore and a set of +.020 pistons. To be honest, I don't know- maybe these parts are cheap and plentiful? Just seems a waste to "throw away" a good cylinder in effort to keep OEM displacement. And really, another 4 cc's ain't going to help you get past the 85lb. kid. My leathers weigh more than that!

Oh, and where's the air-cooled 350's?!?!? :biggrin:

I can see the concern about the fuel and weight, however CCS already has these rules in place for other classes. Fuel is simply a matter of sending to the lab. It is at  the expense of the person protesting so not sweat off CCS's back. More than anything it will dissuade the use of the oxygenated fuel which has been reported to provide more power. I do not know about you but I can do with out spending 25+ a gallon. This is a reason I am no longer running my GP bike.

I see your point about the over bore but can't the cylinders just be re sleeved? The reason we included it is based upon other clubs rules. It leads us to believe that some are getting an advantage from the over bore? I am open to this one if there is no performance gained.

As for the weight, I say base it some where in between the average adult male and female weight which is 150 to 180 in the USA +/- per google. This way the riders have the option of weighing up or slimming down. I do not think that the key is exact numbers but it is about getting the field a little closer. Walter and I are 20/30 lbs apart and we have had some good races. James and I are about the same and have had some good racing. But now James and Walter would be more like 60 lbs apart it would probably make for some better racing if we were to get it a little closer. Does any one know how much an EX250 weighs in full race trim?

As for the 350, I have see what that thing is capable of. I will tell you what Jason, I will let you ride my B bike ;) I could also use your help in getting my CL360 running so that I can join you guys in the Florida Vintage series.
Miguel Chirino
SPECCLASSRACING.com

Tri74x

Good discussion. There is some gain in running oxy-fuels, I do conceed. Better exclude E-85 too unless it already is? Maybe octain and specific gravity limit?

Understood concerns Re: engine. I'm thinking cost here too. Sure you can sleeve, but still have to get shop to match to your pistons anyway. Why not save the cost of sleeve and just spring for a bore/piston. Typical race orgs. have overbore limits of .020" for 4 cylinders up to .080" for singles. Believe me, all the power secrets are in the head. You allow no modifications to the head and you've leveled the field pretty flat. You could hog that thing out until grapefruits dropped through, but all you'd have is a wheelie machine that won't pull past 6K. A pig!
*Factoid* Bill Elliots brother, Ernie, built him a motor that ran 212 mph at Talledega Speedway back when Nascar started making them run restrictor plates. Cars were getting too fast and flying up in the stands and shit, so Nascar was going to slow them down. How then, did Ernie make this car go so fast (with plate) as to still hold the speed record today? He built the motor with smaller displacement! Simple efficiency. Was like 300 C.I. when everyone else had 355's starving for air to move big heavy pistons.

Weight is no big deal, just think too much trouble. I sure as hell ain't getting protested!

Well, hard to believe, but the mighty Honda is down again. Ate a valve at Daytona, but did get a win! FWIW she ran consistant 2:38.3's. I figure you and me would have had a blast! Thre's a saying I heard somewhere, "You can only give the hamster so much cocaine..." This sums up my predicament.

Would love to ride the 250 and get another vintage guy out. Planning on Homestead. Will catch up to you and let me see that 360!