Why is there not a GTO class for 1000cc bikes in F40?

Started by mtmansl, September 16, 2011, 02:57:27 AM

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Sobottka

#36
Quote from: 2blueYam on October 24, 2011, 01:32:53 PM
OK, I will jump in here and see if I can clarify what mtmansl is proposing.  I believe the proposal is to run F40 GTL, F40 GTU, and F40 GTO classes.  All 3 of these classes on the track at the same time for a sprint race.

These classifications have nothing to do with the existing GTL, GTO and GTU endurance races other than they may share bike eligibility rules.

btw:  F40 GTU and F40 GTO would be fine, but I don't think having SV650's (F40 GTL) on the track with S1000RRs (F40 GTO) is a very good idea, particularly since it could be experts on S1000RRs and novices on SV650s.
so what happens to the gt races? are they run seperately as gtl, gtu and gto then another set of gt races combined with the f-40's? you (and others here) dont seem to recognize the difference between the two. gto gtu and gtl (timed races, not scored on lap count. race over in 20 min. despite lap count) will NEVER be combined with sprint races (race over at 8 laps), f-40 or any other sprint race will NEVER be combined with a timed (endurance style) gt race. 
49
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mtmansl

#37
They ran Rookies Cup like this, this year.  It is not run during the GT race, I was using the format to show how it could be run differently than it is run currently, adding an extra race for the 1000cc's.  This idea was just an example, I really don't care if they just add it in to the current F40 format, why keep 1000cc bikes from competing in F40???

Rick Johnson 29

It does not have to be called a GTO F40 or have anything to do with any GT races. We just want to have a chance to race with others over 40 on the bigger bikes. Having the bigger bikes scored just by themselves. The bikes that are legal for F40 as it is now would be scored the same as always. Unlimited F40 could be the name of this race not confuse it with any GT races. So for example: Race 7) Unlimited F40 and F40   Then on the grid CCS can post 2nd wave if they prefer to do so. If not it would be just one wave. Not that confusing really.
Rick Johnson
Expert 29, ASRA 291, Wera 29
2011 SE Unlimited SS Champ                                                               
2011 2nd MA GTO,UnlimitedSB,SS,GP                                                   08 Suzuki GSXR 1000

TommyG

1000's in F40 has been talked about every year since this forum was started.  Kevin actually does his homework on this topic and so far it has always been 'NAY' for 1000's in the class. You may even be able to search and find his explanation here in the archives. When he started talking all Albert Einstein I passed out so I don't recall the reasoning. I don't really care because in the midwest 1000's are gonna lose to 600's anyway! :lmao:

roadracer162

Quote from: Rick Johnson 29 on October 26, 2011, 05:58:07 PM
It does not have to be called a GTO F40 or have anything to do with any GT races. We just want to have a chance to race with others over 40 on the bigger bikes. Having the bigger bikes scored just by themselves. The bikes that are legal for F40 as it is now would be scored the same as always. Unlimited F40 could be the name of this race not confuse it with any GT races. So for example: Race 7) Unlimited F40 and F40   Then on the grid CCS can post 2nd wave if they prefer to do so. If not it would be just one wave. Not that confusing really.

That's good reasoning there Rick. I suggest taking charge and finding interest in the class, maybe a signed petition, and submitting it to the Texas office.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

Rick Johnson 29

I sent my suggestion into the rules committee and sent Kevin a direct email about adding this class. That's about all I can do. I hope CCS will consider adding this class. If you all that want this class added and didn't get your suggestions submitted, maybe email CCS about it so they know there are many of us interested in entering this class if added. Do it soon!
Rick Johnson
Expert 29, ASRA 291, Wera 29
2011 SE Unlimited SS Champ                                                               
2011 2nd MA GTO,UnlimitedSB,SS,GP                                                   08 Suzuki GSXR 1000

Falco

I am with Sobottka and SteveP on this issue. 
For the record I did race F40 this year as a rookie, yes I am a 40 year old rookie  :finger:
There are way to many classes and expending the F40 class does not make sense.  Scheduling the F40 class in a similar fashion as Rookies Cup (GTO, GTU, GTL) would create more problems.  If you stagger the start like Rookies Cup does, how are you going to separate Experts and Amateurs?  This means that there will be two different races:  one for Experts and one for Amateurs and I don't believe we could squeeze another race in an already full day.  In the Midwest CCS run 18-19 races per day!! 

Imagine a situation where you have experts that run within a second of the lap record (Sobottka, SteveP, JohnnyL, DirtNap, etc) and Lightweight F40 amateurs that are almost a minute behind their pace racing at the same time.  That would be scary, extremely dangerous and irresponsible.

As Sobottka pointed out, it is the racer who picked a certain bike that can only race in 3-4 classes.  If you wanted to race 7-12 races why not get a SV, with it you can race all day.  Fuck, you can race both F40 classes if you choose. 


bottom line:  CCS needs to trim its classes and eliminate the redundancy.  If you don't like the class structure, you should have bought a bike that better suits the regulation and not try to suit the regulations to your bike. 
MW CCS #144 Am

twilkinson3

While I agree with most of you points about running the LW F40 with unlimited bikes as the potential closing speeds would suck....a minute? really? lol BFR MW rounds it's more like 8-12 seconds off the lap record pace by the guys that run F40 LW lol (read Ed Key, Bruce Berry, etc, etc)

I'll be in F40 LW Aug this coming year and I'm slow (for an expert) at 13 seconds off the record - now if you said the same thing about Road America...well that is entirely a different animal....

Falco

Quote from: twilkinson3 on November 15, 2011, 12:14:17 PM
While I agree with most of you points about running the LW F40 with unlimited bikes as the potential closing speeds would suck....a minute? really? lol BFR MW rounds it's more like 8-12 seconds off the lap record pace by the guys that run F40 LW lol (read Ed Key, Bruce Berry, etc, etc)


You are talking about LW experts, I was talking about LW amateurs.  BTW Ed Key and Bruce are exception.  There were few guys running 1:38-1:40 in LW amateurs so maybe I exaggerated little bit, but imagine having them on a same track at the same time with Sobbotka, Johnny L, or FastEdy, George K, and i am not even talking about Bart etc.  Too many bikes with different speeds and approaches is a recipe for disaster.
MW CCS #144 Am

mtmansl

Your argument is very nice considering that you don't own a 1000cc bike. ::)   By your logic, those who purchased 1000cc bikes should be punished and offered fewer races than those who bought something smaller.  Maybe a good solution is to get rid of a few of the classes for the smaller displacement classes allowing a few more for the bigger bikes! :thumb:

Falco

Quote from: mtmansl on November 15, 2011, 09:00:35 PM
Your argument is very nice considering that you don't own a 1000cc bike. ::)   By your logic, those who purchased 1000cc bikes should be punished and offered fewer races than those who bought something smaller.  Maybe a good solution is to get rid of a few of the classes for the smaller displacement classes allowing a few more for the bigger bikes! :thumb:

There is a reason why I don't own a 1000cc bike.  As a matter of fact I do own one, but I do not race with it.  Those who purchased a litter bike to race should have done their homework and should have purchased a bike that suits the classes they want to race not the other way around.  CCS should not change the rules to suit individual racer,  rules are rules. 

BTW I do not have a problem with 1000cc racing in F40,  on smaller tracks like BHF your 1000cc is just a handicap. 
MW CCS #144 Am

Rick Johnson 29

I understand what you are say about closing speeds LW and Unlimited bikes. So yes we might have to add one race for safety reason. I'm sure CCS will make the races safe if a unlimited class is added. Maybe it could be structured something like this. Race1) LW F40 Ex & Am  Race2) Unlimited & MW F40 Am Race 3) Unlimited & MW F40 Ex   Just a idea! I'll let the higher powers work it out.
Rick Johnson
Expert 29, ASRA 291, Wera 29
2011 SE Unlimited SS Champ                                                               
2011 2nd MA GTO,UnlimitedSB,SS,GP                                                   08 Suzuki GSXR 1000