PIRELLI VS MICHELIN

Started by CLAYE46, June 22, 2011, 07:37:11 AM

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CLAYE46

Thinking of changing from pirelli to michelin. Which ones do you guys run on SV 650's?

LongDogRacing

mich, duh.

Power One "V" up front, and a medium-soft in the rear.  that combo will get-r-dun.
Justin Pennella
CCS Ex #32

Proud supporter of MOTOHICK

clarustnb

I've been using the pirelli's for ever.  Can't compare them to Michelin and I'm slow... so.. really what I'm saying is I like Pirelli but have no room to talk...
Benjamin Loyle
SV650 # 909
http://loyle.lwtracer.com/

pdoughduc

Might want to check out the Bridgestone BT003's. They have a V front too (Type 2 & 3) and you can get a set for $300. I don't use tire warmers and I've never had an issue with grip or killing the heat cycles and you can get some serious quickness out of them before bumping up to the latest and greatest R10's.
Mid-Atlantic/Atlantic
AM #82
Ducati 900SS

CLAYE46

Were do you get them from? and how do like the V front over the round?

pdoughduc

Quentin Mize (Mize Motors) or I've gotten them from Miles at Street & Competition when I was at NJMP b/c Quentin had another race to go to. My brother just got a Type 3 V front after switching from Michelin's and really liked the feel over the Michelin's but I'm still running a Type 4 front (which is round). I'm pretty easy on front tires and like the feel of the round but I'm going to try a Type 3 V front on my next set and see if I get anything more from the larger contact patch. Both of us run a Type 3 rear and like I said, no issues and good feel.
Mid-Atlantic/Atlantic
AM #82
Ducati 900SS

MELK-MAN

Quote from: CLAYE46 on June 22, 2011, 10:00:50 AM
Were do you get them from? and how do like the V front over the round?

one reason the V front works so much better on a LT wt bike, is because the V is a softer carcas 4ply tire, not a 5 ply like teh Michelin A/B tire. Lyles Sanders and I kicked some ass in the lt wt endurance series on a kawi 650 twin at Roebling road and little tally couple years back. LOVED that tire on a lt wt bike.
As far as comparing.. YOU should get a set of each and go from there. Tire are not a one-time buy, your gonna need more.
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
Pro Flow Tech Performance Fuel Injector Service
MICHELIN, EBC, Silkolene, JenningsGP, Engine Ice

SoudersD

Consider it part of your testing budget.

if you don't have a testing budget, stick with what you have.
Dave Souders
CCS AM #412 / TPM Blue
'06 SV650

Peter998

I used the Michelin power 1's last year and found them to be excellent tires. I won 23 races on them so they must be OK.
I did use the V front which for me on a Duc 1000 helped to turn in quicker, and once on it's side the bike was very stable with a large contact patch. I used the B rear and it was just all around great.

I did have one issue with the V front though. When at Homestead at ROC, trail braking into Turn 3 the front tire slide and would actually skip across the track. I almost bought it there on 3 occasions. I don't know if it was suspension set up or the tire, or too much brake, but I didn't have that problem anywhere else. My feeling is that if you are a heavy trail braker the power 1's may not be the best option. Other than that they were great.
Peter Meringolo 2010 Expert/ASRA # 998
ECS Racing

MELK-MAN

Quote from: Peter998 on June 29, 2011, 12:08:10 PM
I used the Michelin power 1's last year and found them to be excellent tires. I won 23 races on them so they must be OK.
I did use the V front which for me on a Duc 1000 helped to turn in quicker, and once on it's side the bike was very stable with a large contact patch. I used the B rear and it was just all around great.

I did have one issue with the V front though. When at Homestead at ROC, trail braking into Turn 3 the front tire slide and would actually skip across the track. I almost bought it there on 3 occasions. I don't know if it was suspension set up or the tire, or too much brake, but I didn't have that problem anywhere else. My feeling is that if you are a heavy trail braker the power 1's may not be the best option. Other than that they were great.

the issue in Turn 3 at Homestead COULD be the concrete patches that are grooved for grip, but still don't grip as good as the pavement.. Agree the V front is a little more flexy than the A/B fronts, but the additional side grip at full lean seems to outweigh the inferior trail braking characteristic. HOPEFULLY the updated V fronts are getting stiffend up a bit, but no word on when/if that occurs.
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
Pro Flow Tech Performance Fuel Injector Service
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Peter998

Quote from: MELK-MAN on June 29, 2011, 05:45:55 PM
the issue in Turn 3 at Homestead COULD be the concrete patches that are grooved for grip, but still don't grip as good as the pavement.. Agree the V front is a little more flexy than the A/B fronts, but the additional side grip at full lean seems to outweigh the inferior trail braking characteristic. HOPEFULLY the updated V fronts are getting stiffend up a bit, but no word on when/if that occurs.

Greg, you are probably right about that because I was trying to just clip the inside corner of that concrete patch on corner entry which is where the bike is leaned over very far and I am still on the brakes. I tried not to worry about the patches, I hear they are really bad in the rain.
PS: Not to screw up this thread, but I am on Dunlop Ntec's this year and they are really really good.

Back to the original question.
I used Pirellis tin 2009, at that point I was just doing track days. I liked the Diablo Supercorse SP2 The front has more of a V shape, but did not like the Dragon Supercorse tires at all which have a rounded front.
Peter Meringolo 2010 Expert/ASRA # 998
ECS Racing

roadracer162

I can't give a direct comparison of the two tires on the same bike. I have ridden the SV(friend's bike) shod with the Pirelli. I didn't see any issues other than they move around a bit before actually letting go.

I have also riddent a different SV on the same track with the mostly equivalent Continental but that rear move much more than my liking. Yes, it as an endurance rear that was used in the Team Challenge.

I currently race on the Michelin mounted to my Ducati 800 and I like them. for me they give good feedback but not as much as some others but that is not a problem for me. I love the front traction while leaned over and trail braking. I never had a problem with the rear raction mainly I think from the 180 rear tire. I mostly use the B but I have used the A rear with success. I get at least 90 laps out of the  A rear with times within a second of my personal best. Albeit it is a lightweight bike.

T3 at Homestead has claimed many a rider.It is typicl to lose the front there as many have found out. There are quite a few race lins to approach T3 which I can only imagine your tend to really push the front end. Suspension set-up is different for the Michelin and I still continue to find the sweet spot.

Mark
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

tug296

After racing with Michelins for years, did the Moto ST 8 hr. at Daytona on spec Pirelli's on the same old bike, a Honda VTR 1000 which is a tire eater.
Always ran the old M2 Pilot's on it {except for rains} and they were excellent for sprints.
Chose the hard compound Pirelli Diablo Superbike slicks, went through 2 fronts and 3 rears doing just over 745 miles, the last set is still on the bike as I ride it on the street a few times a month.
The Michelins would wear all the way to the edge on both front and rear, the Pirelli's wear was about 1/8 of an inch from the edge, I guess the difference in profile makes the difference in wear.

The Pirelli's grip was very good until the left side was done, when it reached that point it would slide a bit but never just gave up without warning. The Zyvax guys were pitted next to us, they ran thier last rear tire down past the chords and didn't slow up too much until the checkers,  maybe a softer compound or just more laps.

That last rear still has plenty of rubber before the indicators, I've been racing the Corvette recently and trying to heal up, I plan on racing at Jennings or somewhere before Daytona in Oct, and at least practicing on the Pirelli's.
Keeping it simple as I'm certainly no tire expert.
Henry Madsen CCS Expert #396 
2004 Am. Super Twins Champion
Florida Region,  
Moto ST #96, Corvette #6, Patriot Guard Rider

proechel539

If you're not racing supersport I would go with the Bridgestone slicks, they are the ultimate SV tire, as long as you dont need DOT's
Darrell Proechel
CCS Ex # 76
02 SV-650, 06 GSXR750
proechel1@comcast.net

Jwhite316

It really depends and if your not running around doing 15's and 16's on an SV your tire choice wont make much of a difference.  Although the SV Monk Ed Key runs Pirelli....so I'd probably observe what he does and do that exactly lol.
Well how could there be two number 1's? It'd be number 11 then?

red900

Ed Key....  Need i say more?

Dustin Boyd
Cyclepath Racing LLC
Midwest Race Supplier

gkotlin

The Pirellis are the best.  The soft grippy rubber mmmm...  They heat up quick.  They stick great.  The new fronts have a firmer feel.  I upped my front pressures about 1lb - 1.5 lbs.  LOVE THEM! SC1 front SC2 rear.  Done!  Ride the snot out of it. 
Greg K.
CCS MW Expert # 12
2000 SV 650 - 1989 FZR 400
Vinylsaurusrex.com - Cyclepath Racing - Safety First Racing - STT

MELK-MAN

contingency is something to consider.. you can win ALOT of CASH (dinero, clams, dough, etc) with Michelin. THE BEST contingency program without question.
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
Pro Flow Tech Performance Fuel Injector Service
MICHELIN, EBC, Silkolene, JenningsGP, Engine Ice

MACOP1104

Quote from: MELK-MAN on August 01, 2011, 10:07:40 PM
contingency is something to consider.. you can win ALOT of CASH (dinero, clams, dough, etc) with Michelin. THE BEST contingency program without question.

I won about a thousand dollars cash this year as a Novice with Michelins over 6 race weekends.  Not bad...    Anyway, still waiting to try out the new 160 B2 on the SV.  I don't think they hit the US yet and everyone is out.  It's either the A or the commercail Power One if you need a 160.. 

Gino230

I'm a big fan of Pirellis. I run the DOT's and the front grips great and lasts forever. I have seen the front tire pushed for 8 hours in the Daytona Moto ST race on the Ducati 1000- at lap times that would have won a sprint race- that's gotta tell you something.

The rear doesn't seem to have the same endurance as the front, Max grip for maybe 50 laps or so, then it will start to squirm and slide a bit but never fully lets go.

Almost everyone in the Moto Corse pit on LW bikes has gone to Dunlop, they seem to like them, more edge grip and they last longer. However, Kevin M. is still winning all the races on Pirellis, so go figure?

Also Pirelli now has a new SC1 front (blue) that grips like a soft and lasts like an endurance tire! I tried it this weekend, it is great, but I got a little chatter from the front at PBIR turn 5 (the long right) not sure if it's the tire, the track, or maybe I need to make some adjustments for the softer carcass, I had not turned a clicker in several races...
CCS / ASRA EX # 23
2012 Ducati 848 / 1100 Conversion     2005 Ducati 749RS
2006 CCS Florida Thunderbike Champion (AM)
2008 CCS LW Supersport National Champion (EX) 2nd in 2011 and now  2012....damn you Mavros!

MELK-MAN

#20
Quote from: Gino230 on August 05, 2011, 11:43:33 AM
I'm a big fan of Pirellis. I run the DOT's and the front grips great and lasts forever. I have seen the front tire pushed for 8 hours in the Daytona Moto ST race on the Ducati 1000- at lap times that would have won a sprint race- that's gotta tell you something.

The rear doesn't seem to have the same endurance as the front, Max grip for maybe 50 laps or so, then it will start to squirm and slide a bit but never fully lets go.

Almost everyone in the Moto Corse pit on LW bikes has gone to Dunlop, they seem to like them, more edge grip and they last longer. However, Kevin M. is still winning all the races on Pirellis, so go figure?

Also Pirelli now has a new SC1 front (blue) that grips like a soft and lasts like an endurance tire! I tried it this weekend, it is great, but I got a little chatter from the front at PBIR turn 5 (the long right) not sure if it's the tire, the track, or maybe I need to make some adjustments for the softer carcass, I had not turned a clicker in several races...

Michelin rear tires are as good as anything out there, and a NEW lineup of tires is said to be in the works to be released 2012 ! :)

Gino, one reason lots of you guys n' gals with Motocorse are liking dunlops (aside from it being a good tire) is that none of the riders there have set up the suspension for Michelin. Bob Cole has been on Michelin but is having some issues now as he is going faster, in part because he won't get the suspension set up for those tires.  The tire construction is a bit different than the other brands. at 15 seconds off lap record pace, it won't matter as much, but when you guys are pushing faster, and with similar corner speeds to some of the best CCS ridrs, your not going to have confidence if the suspension is not set up..
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
Pro Flow Tech Performance Fuel Injector Service
MICHELIN, EBC, Silkolene, JenningsGP, Engine Ice

roadracer162

I too run the Michelin Power One on the Ducati 800 and more recently on the Ducati 748. I have found some good fortune with these tires and does require a little time to adjust to the difference in feel. One of the main reasons for my switch to Michelin is that I found myself going even faster on the Bridgestone Slicks and as Greg mentioned noticed some issues come up. the Michelin seems to have more grip and more stable in the fast stuff. I did notice a difference in the rear tire profile when leaned over. I also change my own tires with a No-mar manual changer and found that the Bridgestone tires easier to mount than the Michelin. I would assume the Bridgestone has a more flexible carcass that leant to the front chatter that I would always have problems with.


Gino- My times are about what your times are so I can only guess we have about the same corner speed and thus stress the tires the same. the Duc800 and the Duc1000 have very similar chassis and my geometry is set based on your chassis numbers. The Michelin I use now have improved the feel that I get from the chassis although my objective findings(lap times) tend to be the same. My personal best lap times have been better with the Bridgestone.


Longevity of the Michelin has proven to be good. I typically can get 100 laps out of the set using the A rear with the fastest lap being on the 87 lap. So not much drop off in performance. I have used the front in practice to 130 laps and I still see considerably fast times(within a second of my PB) with the Michelin V front.


Greg- I believe some of the issues that Bob may have is that he remains with the same pressure throughout the day. He has not used the control tire practice as you have suggested. At the last PBIR round I had similar issues as Bob with the tires giving a vague feeling. I lowered the pressures as we spoke of and that seemed to cure the issues.


Yes my 800 does not stress the 180 like a middleweight bike but most times I can carry very similar corner speeds and even get a better initial drive from the apex of the corner.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

MELK-MAN

good info Mark, i may mention that to Bob next time. He may be "Setting and forgetting" and having the psi go too high. I was running 20psi cold with an A rear on the 600cc at PBIR. Worked very well. Ran 1 A rear all day in practice on Saturday.
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
Pro Flow Tech Performance Fuel Injector Service
MICHELIN, EBC, Silkolene, JenningsGP, Engine Ice

red900

Quote from: Gino230 on August 05, 2011, 11:43:33 AM
I'm a big fan of Pirellis. I run the DOT's and the front grips great and lasts forever. I have seen the front tire pushed for 8 hours in the Daytona Moto ST race on the Ducati 1000- at lap times that would have won a sprint race- that's gotta tell you something.

The rear doesn't seem to have the same endurance as the front, Max grip for maybe 50 laps or so, then it will start to squirm and slide a bit but never fully lets go.

Almost everyone in the Moto Corse pit on LW bikes has gone to Dunlop, they seem to like them, more edge grip and they last longer. However, Kevin M. is still winning all the races on Pirellis, so go figure?

Also Pirelli now has a new SC1 front (blue) that grips like a soft and lasts like an endurance tire! I tried it this weekend, it is great, but I got a little chatter from the front at PBIR turn 5 (the long right) not sure if it's the tire, the track, or maybe I need to make some adjustments for the softer carcass, I had not turned a clicker in several races...

The Pirelli's do work fantastic on the LW bikes.  The fact that the tire has the fastest heat up and lowest heat range out of all the tires helps, especially on the LW bikes.  The lower weight bikes dont have the weight to get heat into tires in some cases and the soft carcass Pirelli builds up the heat fast. 
Im glad to hear you like the SC1 front.  I have basically stopped carrying anything else due to the popularity of that tire.  I have a guy coaching on these things and just turned 1400 track miles at a top 5 expert pace.  It is outrageous... 

As for the chatter, i would suspect something else.  In most cases the softer carcass reduces the chatter.  As in the ZX6r, guys would switch to Pirelli to eliminate the chatter they would get o nthe other tires.  I remember Robbie Jensen nicknamed the Kawi the "Chatterbox"
Dustin Boyd
Cyclepath Racing LLC
Midwest Race Supplier

roadracer162

I think both the Michelin and Pirelli are good tires. I would like to try the current Pirelli slick but at this point maybe my knowledge and skill aren't enough to tell the real difference.

I currently use the Michelin because of cost and the fact that contingency comes into play. In 2009 while using Bridgestone my tire bill came to a whopping $750 out of pocket. I feel as though I got to the point where I was over-riding to improve on the Bridgestone and so far the Michelin has served me well. Money each weekend is nice too.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.