Advice on getting started with CCS?

[pointofdeparture]

Hello all, my name is Desmond, I'm 21, and I've had the itch to go racing for as long as I can remember. I'm located in Milwaukee, WI and it looks like the midwest region would be my locale. I was looking for some newbie advice from you guys; I've already done a fair bit of searching on this board, so I am starting to figure out what I'd like to do, but could use some more guidance. I would like to be as competitive as possible, but really I just want to have some serious fun and scratch my racing itch!

Firstly, I'm wondering what the consensus is on the many racing schools out there. Learning Curves is in my area, and I see that they offer both a licensing course and an advanced rider course. I've street ridden bikes on and off since I was 15, but not with any real regularity. The archives on this board seem to recommend some real rider coaching instead of a simple "get your license today" school, particularly from a guy by the name of Super Dave, who is (was?) in my area but no longer seems to be around! I figured I would start running some track days to get a feel for things, then get my license and possibly take the advanced rider course through Learning Curves. Thoughts? I suppose I should add that my intended timeline is to get licensed by the end of the year and get some track experience, and begin racing next year/season.

Second, I am trying to figure out what bike would be best for me. I don't really intend to compete in the "meat grinder" middleweight class right off the bat, sounds like it could easily turn into a painful/heartbreaking entry to racing. Lightweight seems more fitting for a beginner like myself. Looks like everyone runs SV650s in this region, but some people make mention of FZR400s and RS250s and the like in posts here. If it makes any difference, I'm 6'2" and 170lbs. I'm most concerned about having a competitive, reliable bike with good parts support than anything else. I also don't want to spend $30k on some exotic Bimota...Yamaha has earned my loyalty in the past but if the SV650 is most competitive so be it. Also, I intend to build the bike myself - I've been turning wrenches since I was a kid, so unless a really good deal comes along on a race-ready machine, I'd have too much fun in the assembly process to skip it. What modifications should I be looking at right away, regardless of bike choice?

Is there anything else that a newbie to cycle racing should know? Any and all advice that you guys can give me is awesome.

[Burt Munro]

Congratulations......

I'll keep it real basic.  Do the Learning Curves school, do some track days, get your race license ( not necessarily in that order ).   The Advanced Race School will benefit you more once you get comfortable on the bike and start reacting instead of having to think what to do.

SV650 would be a good place to start.  Buying a race ready bike is a good way to go.  Building it yourself will cost you a lot more and you'll have a lot of decisions to make as far as what parts to buy (without really knowing yet why you should go one way or the other).  You'll get plenty of chances to work on your bike regardless.

If you really like to work on bikes go with a 2 stroke - 125 or 250.  You'll have more than your share of opportunities to work on the  bike if you go this way just by the nature of more routine maintenance on a 2 stroke.  You'd be best off having a Mentor if you go this way unless you really know your way around a motor.

You're lucky in that there are a ton of racers in the Milwaukee/S. Wisconsin/N. Illinois area.  I'm sure someone close to you will chime in shortly.

Good Luck!

[roadracer162]

Yeah you are on the taller side of racing especially when it comes to the lightweight bikes. I have seen Adam loefler at  your height and weight racing a 125 gp bike and he was competitive. The GP bike althoug requiring perceptually more maintenance is not too bad. Top end rebuilds costing in the $125 range depending on the bike and complete rebuilds in the $1500 range. Try that with any four stroke. Oh yeah tires lasting the season on reportedly two sets.

The SV is a cheap reliable mount that I recommend and it may fit you better. Cheap on tires and yes you cN cheat a little on maintenance unlike the GP bike.

Get the race prepped bike it will save you time and money and you will be better prepared as to what you want. Alright is the best advice on bike prep and riding coach.

I think if you are not gonna race this year then don't get the license. I personally think that racing is much safer than track days and so racing is the choice for me. Then again I am in the Florida region where we get a good amount of track time.

[Super Dave]

I'm retired from teaching!  Not much of a market of hard chargers as there was just a few years back.  The trackday mentality is a "little light" for me too. 

The SV is a good bike.  Lots of parts in the pits, lots of information on whacky swaps and items that can be done.  You can build a simple supersport bike or you can build an expensive 90+HP SV with a weight under 300#.  Or work your way up to that. 

Your size?  Yeah, that does make it a little different.  I got to race Ed Key over the weekend on a Kawasaki 650R for http://www.racingunlimited.com and it was pretty neat.  If I weighed less, I would have had a better shot than I did against the top level program like Ed.  But you won't be going directly head to head with Ed as a start up amateur. 

How much money do you have to spend on this project, Desmond?

[pointofdeparture]

Yowza! Seems like the GP bike is worth taking a pass on. I'm no stranger to engines, have done a couple Subaru engine rebuilds, also a handful of mopeds and once an old Yamaha RD200 (imagine my lanky 6'2" ass on that thing), but that doesn't mean I WANT to rebuild a motor every season! My budget at this point is somewhere in the realm of ~$7500 to get everything I need together to go racing. I'm bikeless at the moment, was planning on picking up a cheap FZR750R I found locally to beat on at track days and get back into the groove of riding, but I suppose I could also find an SV and start building. It seems like there are some pretty good deals out there (LWSB SV650 in Iowa that just sold on these here classifieds) but when travel/transportation costs, lost time, and a lack of "I built this" confidence come together, it seems that buying a ready-to-race bike isn't terribly economical. That being said I probably would have bought that SV if I could have gotten my crap together in time. I would like to start in SS though and work my way up.

[LilJayRR]

When I decided to take the plunge, I bought a salvaged 600 and took it to the track. I did  1 track day to get a little acclimated before taking the race school. After that I did not do another track day.
I never worried about 'the meat grinder'. It is what you make of it. You are going to crash, it's inevitable. I guess things happen more in the middle weight class, but grids aren't what they used to be either. Light weight is definitely easier on the pocket book as far as tires go, and you can't get in trouble as quickly by being greedy with the throttle. 
If you don't have health insurance, get some! Hospital bills can be expensive.
     

[Super Dave]

My budget at this point is somewhere in the realm of ~$7500 to get everything I need together to go racing. I'm bikeless at the moment, was planning on picking up a cheap FZR750R I found locally to beat on at track days and get back into the groove of riding, but I suppose I could also find an SV and start building. It seems like there are some pretty good deals out there (LWSB SV650 in Iowa that just sold on these here classifieds) but when travel/transportation costs, lost time, and a lack of "I built this" confidence come together, it seems that buying a ready-to-race bike isn't terribly economical. That being said I probably would have bought that SV if I could have gotten my crap together in time. I would like to start in SS though and work my way up.

$7500 for a bike build?  But what about the season? 

An FZR750R is going to have issues.  Neat bike, but probably better restored and sold.  Chassis have improved generally since 1987.  Making that work as well as current stuff is going to take work, and there isn't a knowledge base around anymore to give you ideas on that.

Building your own bike is all fine and all.  But it means that you'll pay retail for all your parts.  Additionally, assembling parts is still just assembling parts.  If you can find a decent SV that someone has bought, built, AND SET UP!  That's what you want to find.  Set up means that they took the time to figure out what spring rates worked well, sorted out shock lengths and the like.  You can save thousands doing that and put that right back into tires.  It's hard enough just to learn how to go fast, but if you're adding a complete attempt at set up to the task...hell, there are plenty of racers out there that have screwy set ups that just "ride the bike the way it is" and never take the time to learn how to make the thing work for themselves. 

[roadracer162]

There has been some great advice here on this thread. My own experience began with the '91 FZR600 that I bought for $1500. At the time not much competitive to the modern day bikes and yeah, Dave is right about learning how to ride and set up a bike when I didn't know what I wanted. The old bike is cool and can be done but it makes it that much harder to be at the front. You will be competitive for last place though or maybe in the middle of the field.

The SV or any lightweight bike will cost the same to put together as a similar set up middle-weight bike. My belief is that it is a better platform for the new racer. My rational is that on my Ultralight bike I can turn the same lap times or faster than many AM on liter bikes. It just allows more to be learned.

The 125GP isn't as bad as you may think. No a rebuild is not necessary every year. I think many don't do as much maintennance as they should on the four strokes. When I had the 125GP bike I could do a top end swap with bodywork removal and install in about one hour. If you do the complete rebuild on your own the cost is about $500-$600.

Mark

[2blueYam]

if you haven't done so already, check out http://www.wisconsinsportbikes.net.  There are both racers and track day riders there that are in your area on there.  There are are a few SV650 racers included in that.  The svrider board could be a good place to look to see what modifications are suggested for SV650 racers.  This may help when shopping for a bike.

[twilkinson3]

Or pm me a phone  number if you want to chat sv bikes - 2blue is my pit monkey and I'm just west of north Milwaukee in the Falls....and I've got nothing else to do until this hand I broke heals.....

LW is a great group of guys in the MW to race with, lots of fun and very helpful group, find a 2nd gen sv already race prep'd, then get some seat time on it at a few track days and if you plan to race next season....get the license then

[pointofdeparture]

I will probably end up buying an already-built SV650, at this point. I am not so totally gung-ho about building a bike that I will spend 3x more to do it, that's for sure! I'm just more of a hands-on learner so figured I might gain some perspective building it myself. Regardless, seems like there is a good knowledge base out there for the SV and good parts support; the two-strokers sound appealing but a bit exotic for a beginner like me. Are the 2nd gens really more desirable than the 1st gens? It seems like the hardest part will be finding a bike that will not cost hundreds of dollars just to retrieve from faraway states...I stumbled across this one today, wonder if its still for sale & if he's flexible on price... http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,25653.0.html

If I can't find the right SV soon, I am still considering the FZR750 as a brief project/profitable flip (cool bike for its time, love the 5-valve engine, and the one I know of is CHEAP), the advantage being that it's at least good enough to start running track days and getting some miles behind me until I find the right bike. $7500 wasn't necessarily dedicated to a bike build alone, and I have more than that, but at $2-3k for a bike and a touch less than that in gear (already have a tow vehicle & trailer) I figure that's not a bad number to get started with. 2blue, thanks for the links, I'll check 'em out, and Mr. Wilkinson, check your PM's, I'd enjoy a chat.

I'm also curious in a more general sense, looks like the entire midwest season pretty much takes place at Blackhawk. I hope this isn;t a stupid question but any reason there's no racing at Road America, Gratten, etc? I assume it has to do with the mentioned dwindling grid sizes?

[Fast Eddy]

Or pm me a phone  number if you want to chat sv bikes - 2blue is my pit monkey and I'm just west of north Milwaukee in the Falls....and I've got nothing else to do until this hand I broke heals.....

LW is a great group of guys in the MW to race with, lots of fun and very helpful group, find a 2nd gen sv already race prep'd, then get some seat time on it at a few track days and if you plan to race next season....get the license then

^^ this^^ And read some performance riding books like Keith Code's "twist of the wrist" series. Or Lee Parks "total control".
You will spend less $$ buying a track prepped bike. This will leave more $$ for track time.
Blackhawk also runs riding clinics on the fridays before race weekends.

If you get stuck and need a hand PM me too. I'm in Mequon.

[Super Dave]

If you're actually going to race, find a copy of Kenny Robert's book Techniques of Motorcycle Road Racing.  It's out of print, and a copy will probably cost over $100, but it is probably the best no bs book out there.  Certainly will be an attitude adjustment, maybe too harsh for most people.  It's very no BS rather than a thousand questions.  Ride an ice bike in the winter too. 

[pointofdeparture]

Awesome. Learned a lot speaking to Terry last night, and just placed an order for both "Twist of the Wrist' books. Also found Roberts' book in used condition for a mere $13 on Amazon! Thanks for the suggestions, they'll make great reading material during the work day.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

...and just placed an order for both "Twist of the Wrist' books.

There's actually a 3rd Keith Code book as well, 'The Soft Science of Road Racing'. 

[racerhall]

get a 600 and do some motovid trackdays at blackhawk farms and then get your liscense then race at blackhawk, i thing there are 3 races left for the season so there is still time, you will learn the most on a 600, start with that

[gkotlin]

Lots of great SV's out there.  Then get out and do some track days and get some quality instruction.  Get started that way and get some seat time.  If you get good on an SV, you'll learn to ride well and it's just a matter of dealing with more power.  You can get a solid setup SV for under $3000.00.

July 4th at Blackhawk Farms is a Nesba trackday.  Come out and watch or if you have a bike, come out and do the free intro sessions to give it a try.  You'll find many common faces at the race weekends and track days.  PM if you need more info, I'm not on the forum as much as I'd like.

[scubabill]

Yeah you are on the taller side of racing especially when it comes to the lightweight bikes. I have seen Adam loefler at  your height and weight racing a 125 gp bike and he was competitive. The GP bike althoug requiring perceptually more maintenance is not too bad. Top end rebuilds costing in the $125 range depending on the bike and complete rebuilds in the $1500 range. Try that with any four stroke. Oh yeah tires lasting the season on reportedly two sets.

The SV is a cheap reliable mount that I recommend and it may fit you better. Cheap on tires and yes you cN cheat a little on maintenance unlike the GP bike.

Get the race prepped bike it will save you time and money and you will be better prepared as to what you want. Alright is the best advice on bike prep and riding coach.

I think if you are not gonna race this year then don't get the license. I personally think that racing is much safer than track days and so racing is the choice for me. Then again I am in the Florida region where we get a good amount of track time.

LOL...There might be a few 6'3" close to 200lb guys riding LW machinery

[fzr400tony]

I also think racing is safer than track days these days.

The first generation vs second generation SV topic is interesting. You can get some solid information on the svrider forum, searching the racer section. You can also probably find some stuff on zoran's forum (twf racing or something like that)

You should buy the best maintained bike you can find for the money you have. I would avoid bikes that's have signs of neglect. I would avoid round bolts and Allen heads. Personally, I think superbikes are usually a bad idea. Stock motors are always more reliable. That said, I would much rather an 85 HP SV that wasn't built by a hack than one that has a bunch of over-torqued and stripped bolts, no service history and a bunch of clearly bent parts.

I wouldn't be afraid of a nicely put together Buell or Ducati if you have $7,500 to spend. When you buy it, have the suspension freshened and then set up for you. You really don't want to own a bike that might require much more work than that your first year.  You just want to ride it.

[Court Jester]

Hello all, my name is Desmond, I'm 21, and I've had the itch to go racing for as long as I can remember. I'm located in Milwaukee, WI and it looks like the midwest region would be my locale. I was looking for some newbie advice from you guys; I've already done a fair bit of searching on this board, so I am starting to figure out what I'd like to do, but could use some more guidance. I would like to be as competitive as possible, but really I just want to have some serious fun and scratch my racing itch!

Firstly, I'm wondering what the consensus is on the many racing schools out there. Learning Curves is in my area, and I see that they offer both a licensing course and an advanced rider course. I've street ridden bikes on and off since I was 15, but not with any real regularity. The archives on this board seem to recommend some real rider coaching instead of a simple "get your license today" school, particularly from a guy by the name of Super Dave, who is (was?) in my area but no longer seems to be around! I figured I would start running some track days to get a feel for things, then get my license and possibly take the advanced rider course through Learning Curves. Thoughts? I suppose I should add that my intended timeline is to get licensed by the end of the year and get some track experience, and begin racing next year/season.

Second, I am trying to figure out what bike would be best for me. I don't really intend to compete in the "meat grinder" middleweight class right off the bat, sounds like it could easily turn into a painful/heartbreaking entry to racing. Lightweight seems more fitting for a beginner like myself. Looks like everyone runs SV650s in this region, but some people make mention of FZR400s and RS250s and the like in posts here. If it makes any difference, I'm 6'2" and 170lbs. I'm most concerned about having a competitive, reliable bike with good parts support than anything else. I also don't want to spend $30k on some exotic Bimota...Yamaha has earned my loyalty in the past but if the SV650 is most competitive so be it. Also, I intend to build the bike myself - I've been turning wrenches since I was a kid, so unless a really good deal comes along on a race-ready machine, I'd have too much fun in the assembly process to skip it. What modifications should I be looking at right away, regardless of bike choice?

Is there anything else that a newbie to cycle racing should know? Any and all advice that you guys can give me is awesome.

Learn how to have a total ball pissing away large amounts of money and get real comfortable with smiling as you do it and you should be golden.