SV 650 Superbike classes (Winter Dreaming)

[poppop587]

Once again the point is being missed.  I do not want to keep the Duc's or the Buell's off the track.  I simply want them to run against each other.  why is this such a burr under your saddle George.  Classes are made for a reason.  What other class has bikes as small as 125's and goes all the way to 1200 cc's?  If someone decides to come in with a 1500cc air cooled V-Twin would that be OK?  How about a 2000cc air cooled V-Twin.  Where does it stop.  When does it quit evolving?  Yes, some ride for the pure joy of things, but you have stated that you want the contingency.  Well so do some of the guys on the smaller, less powerful bikes.  All I am asking for is that they be given a chance to compete against like bikes.  I like and respect Peter very much and I like being on the track with him, but I feel very confident that he will tell you that when we come on to the straight that he will beat me to the finish line every time.  That George is not the spirit of the sport.  That sir is due to the fact that he has more horsepower and torque and there is nothing that I or anyone else can do about it.  As I stated before.  I love the back and forth racing in the corners and love the close racing but if we come out of the last corner even, the Duc wins unless I have built a grenade engine or lightened the bike to an insane level.  Is this truly your idea of sportsmanship and fair competition?  Seperate classes on the track at the same time solves all the problems except one and that is your desire to get contingency.  So lets call a Spade a Spade.  You want the contingency and you need all the smaller bikes to get that.  If you are racing for the fun of it, why not seperate classes on the track together.

[apriliaman]

My Ducati last year had 95hp and could not even pass any ducati's in my class in a straight line!!!! I can stay there in the draft but that is it.My SV 650 has only 75hp!! And i'm getting left in the dust by other sv's on the straights.My DUC with a full tank of gas is 418lbs 20 lbs more then other duc's in my class,as you see i havent put any lightweight parts on it,maybe this year and is  408 after gt lights.My SV is 385 with a full tank.

[George_Linhart]

Once again the point is being missed.  I do not want to keep the Duc's or the Buell's off the track.  I simply want them to run against each other.  why is this such a burr under your saddle George.  Classes are made for a reason.  What other class has bikes as small as 125's and goes all the way to 1200 cc's?  If someone decides to come in with a 1500cc air cooled V-Twin would that be OK?  How about a 2000cc air cooled V-Twin.  Where does it stop.  When does it quit evolving?  Yes, some ride for the pure joy of things, but you have stated that you want the contingency.  

I shortened your comments above down a bit, but let me answer the issues from this quoted section because I believe these are some important points.

1) I personally don't ride for contigency - I don't sign up for it (my choice for entirely personal reasons), but I think it is important that classes have enough riders to support contingency for those to whom it is important.  Hence, changing classes around with a net effect of reduce the # of bkes in any class in a recessionary market is a bad idea as there won't be enough bikes on the grid for contingency to pay out.  For the record, i would prefer lower tire prices for everyone and no contingency as this would make racing cheaper for everyone, not just the front runners.

2)  The Ducati's and Buells do race against each other in the Lightweight class and in Thunderbike (or did you miss that in the rulebook - again which has been consistent for over 6 years?).  You are focusing only on engine size abd neglect that what we are really talking about are completely different bike desigins (125cc 2 stroke GP bike), 650 cc V-twin liquid cooled 4 valve head sportikbe engine and an air cooled 2 valve v-twin streetbike motors.  Each has its own +/- which may suit one rider or track more than others.  In all reality, the rules don't favor one brand vs. another - there rules are just the rules and it is up to each racer to decide what to buy and how to modify to compete.

3) Evolution should not stop.  It didn't stop in the 1970's when drum brakes were standard.  It didn't stop when water cooling became mainstream.  It didn't stop when the SV came out and took over the LW class from the Honda Hawk.  I don't understand why is it the SV guys (some on beat down 19 year old bikes) that complain the loudest.  The class structure is there and has been there for a long time, just because you choose to ride an older SS SV does not make that a valid reason that an existing rule strucutre should be changed so you can be more competitifve.  You can choose to buy a different bike legal for the class, you can explore the rules and modify your bike to be more competitive than your rivals or you can buy a bike legal for a new class where you believe you will be more competitive.  You hae every right to come out and race and do your best, but, if the rules were in place before you started and chose to race what you race, why should the rules change now that you realize that there are faster bikes and/or riders?

You ask why this constant whining bothers me?  Well, I looked long and hard at the class structure in 2005, incluidng looking backwards to see how the rules changed and what had been deemed illegal in the class, I closely read the rulebook and considered my options and decidded that I wanted to build a bike to be competitive in the LW class at my favorite track (Road Ameriica) under superbike rules that would be relatively reliable.  Choices were an SV, Buell XB9 or Ducati 1000SS.  After much consideration about the advantages and disadvantages of each bike, combined with a bit of a flair for an italian bike, I chose the 1000SS and have spent 5 seasons planning, desinging, builidng, re-building, refining and enhanding this bike.

Now, please understand this is not a no-expenses spared exotic, unobtanium bike, there are a large number of upgrades and things I have chosen not to do in the interst of expense and reliability (but it does have some really cool parts).  To give you an idea of the cash investment in total I have spent somewhere around $19,000 (over a period of 5 years), including the orignal acquisition cost.  The only things not included in this cost total are tires and oil lchanges (the running total even considers bodywork repair, repainting, brake pads, etc...). What is not in this cost and I can not account for is the amount of time and effort spent developing this bike to do what I want - time spent talking to other ducati riders, researching products, working with suspension experts and mechanics even trying to learn and understand geometry and physics in order to troubleshoot certain handling gremlins that have been displayed over time...

The result is that my bike is reasonably fast and competitive at Road America (makes sense as that was the design criteria).  I had good results there last year (2nd, 3rd and 4th place finishes)  with the podium in the GTL, LWSB and Thuderbike classes made up of a diverse set of bikes (I think all the podiums consistged of some conbination of Superbike SVs, a SuperbikeDucati 7500SS, a Superbike Buell and my superbike Ducati 1000SS).  Note the important factor - each bike was built to a SB spec - really just showing that in a Superbike Class, you need to bring a Superbike build, especially at a track like Road America.

I am annoyed that sombeody who clearly has hot taken the time to understand the rules strucute and itshistory, and who has not put forth the effort to build a legal bike around the rules chooses to whine because they don't get to win.  Racing is a competition - you either compete to win or you can just come to enjoy the effort.  Whining that the rules are not fair to the choices you made because you didn't win isn't about competition, it is about the new socialistic expectation of the world.  All I hear you saying is that you want your regional or national championship but don't want to do everything it takes to win.

George

[Farmboy]

Whew. Gee. Wow. You go, George. Excellent points throughout. I couldn't agree more with everything you said. One point in particular really stood out, though; competing to win. After my first (and incomplete) Am. season, I started to think ahead, determine my ultimate goals, and began to implement a plan wherein I would have a reasonable chance of realizing those goals. Mostly, I realized that having 2 bikes would be hugely beneficial for various and obvious reasons, and in fact, puchased another, (3rd) brand-new S2R after my 2nd Am. season as I thought that this would enhance my chances of success as an expert. Alas, I was never able to develop that bike because of the economic downturn, and actually sold it a few weeks back. Regardless, I did what I thought it was going to take to get the job done at the time.

There are many other strategies and techniques I'm employing beyond having multiple bikes, but what we're refering to is a level of commitment, right? Now granted, not everyone can afford a 19k bike, or multiple bikes! Acknowledged! I'm extremely grateful for everything I have, although honestly, I forego a LOT to concentrate on racing. But, they can take a bike and do what you did, that is, map a definite plan, do  the work and research, and improve the bike and their skills to try and realize their goals. Unfortunately, though, this is racing, and everyone can't win. I'm continually amazed at how many racers just want a championship, any championship, and they seem to want it served up on a platter. I've seen a lot of references to our cultural sense of entitlement this debate season, and it really makes a lot of sense. Me, I don't get it. If I could only have the one bike, I'd still do the best I could with it, and be happy to have the opportunity.

My goals? Well, this is a new one from when I started out, but first and foremost, I want to have fun. Any and all of us are lucky just to take part in this sport. The world is more screwed up every day, and yet we are grown adults wasting gas, straining relationships, and risking our well-being, all to just chase each other in circles. Sure, it's awesome to be the fastest idiot, but I kinda think we're all STILL just idiots. What we do makes not a spit of difference to the rest of the world. Other goals? Well, of course I'd also like to win some expert championships, which may never happen. Hell, may nothing, it'll most likely never happen. Nevertheless, I will do everything I can within the rules that are set forth by the sanctioning body to facilitate this. However, if I fail, it's entirely on me, and that will be fine. I'll do my best. And if you fail, it's on you. I'll never resent another racer for having a better machine, more resources, or better skills. It would be disrespectful to do so, to say the least. I think the reason we get so irritated on this topic is because we adhere to this tenet. I've known some great racers, and I've known some awesome people. My very favorite people in the world are both. Utimately, we can complain, or we can try to optimize and overcome. I choose the latter. Please don't penalize me or anyone else for doing so.

[tstruyk]

I'm still trying to figure out how to race a 19 year old SV???

sup Jim! 

I'll see you kids at the MW rounds, hopefully you'll be chasing me on my 12 year old zook...

great points, not much else to add.

[MACOP1104]

I raced lightweights on a SV in 2003 before the rule change.  Spent 4 years 2004-2008 working overseas, did track days in 2009, then started racing again in 2010.  It is what it is and that's about it.  I'll still race my SVs at the local CCS races but going to Daytona on an SV would be a wasted effort.  I'll concentrate on the WERA races and attend the GNF in the fall.  

[backMARKr]

great points, not much else to add.

I am still waiting for the always relevant "well good for you!"

[tstruyk]

cocked and loaded... just waiting for the riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight time

::)

[roadracer162]

.My DUC with a full tank of gas is 418lbs 20 lbs more then other duc's in my class,as you see i havent put any lightweight parts on it,maybe this year and is  408 after gt lights.My SV is 385 with a full tank.

Marc your Ducati is heavy as heck. My 800 weigh in at 365# with two gallons of fuel. Your SV is pretty slow comapred to many other SVs

[apriliaman]

Hey mark My bike fits the MOTO-ST limit good 75hp and a 360lbs limit with no gas. But my bike doesn't go as fast as those at the time , Is it the bike or the rider?? Go to Roebling Road so we can have a good race.My bike runs good there.

[George_Linhart]

Sure, it's awesome to be the fastest idiot, but I kinda think we're all STILL just idiots.

Pure poetry and so true.

Thanks for the reminder that we are all just idiots riding in circles!

George

[Farmboy]

Pure poetry and so true.

Thanks for the reminder that we are all just idiots riding in circles!

George

It took me a couple of years, but it finally dawned on me that we weren't actually getting anywhere..