Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule

Started by squirrel22, November 09, 2010, 09:13:27 AM

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SV88

I like this idea having gone from a strong Amateur season in 07 (700+ points) to a series of weak expert seasons.  In my case it was more complicated because while I was having my strong AM season, I was passing most experts.  Not the case in the next few seasons.

I would argue that a more realist criteria for expert status would be a combination of points and perf. index.
Fastsv650/SVR6/Steve sv23
09R6rdrace,13KTM250xc enduro,03SV1000N, 99-02 sv650 project
ret. CCS MW/FL/SE 88  Moto A SSP 881

roadracer162

So back to the focus of the thread. A rider that achieved enough points to go to Expert but downgraded to stay amateur and then begins to win amateur races in the following year should be bumped to the expert class during that year. I agree.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

GSXR RACER MIKE

#14
I described in this thread ( http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,25286.0.html ) the major flaw with the Performance Index (P/I) calculation and a solution to fixing it.

Using P/I (in the corrected way I described in that other thread) for calculating the Amateur jump point to Expert would be a good thing because it would be based on actual results (wins vs last place finishes), I think that calculation should be used in ALL situations for the Expert bump (including the 1st time). When using P/I if someone was finishing Top 3 constantly it would be heavily reflected in their adjusted points - they would get to 400 points quickly - but if they were constantly finishing poorly their adjusted points would be very low and it would be very difficult for them to reach the Expert jump point in a season. In my opinion the only time an Amateur who's reached the bump point should be allowed to finish out the season is if it's their 1st time as an Amateur.

Another twist on this is to have an alternate 'Sandbagger Calculation' that applies to Amateur racers that have raced for more than 1 season with CCS, this would be designed to stop people from remaining an Amateur (who finishes well) for years on end by only racing enough to keep them below the bump point (ultimately the sandbaggers ruin it for all the true Amateurs who feel they don't have a chance against the sandbaggers). This would actually be very simple and would also use the per race P/I calculation (not averaged calculation), CCS could come up with a P/I and number of races that they believe is a fair point where someone is obviously not an Amateur and should be bumped up to Expert status. If (for example only) CCS decided the number of races was 10 and the P/I was 900 then as soon as someone had 10 finishes that had a 900 P/I or above they would be bumped to Expert per the 'Sandbagger Calculation' for their next event. This doesn't mean 10 finishes in a row with a 900 P/I, it means ANY 10 finishes with a 900 P/I or above - here's an example of P/I's that would eventually count toward the bump:

785, 909, 1000, 965, 900, 920, 810, 1000, 740, 830, 975, 910, 500, 1000, 770, 935

The biggest decision with this is what P/I is appropriate and how many races to use, but I would imagine the 900 P/I and 10 individual races isn't too far off since it would represent numerous Top 3 finishes in average size Middleweight races. Another option not using P/I at all is to say (for example) a certain amount of finishes that are Top 2 - maybe 10 could work here as well.

Something I've also seen as a discouragement to true Amateur racers is what I call 'Contingency Snipers' who only show up to race at 1 or 2 events in a season strictly for the contingency at those events - when they clearly are not Amateur racers. My solution for that is a single event Amateur 'Contingency Sniper' rule for those who just hop from org to org cherry picking the highest contingency payouts from Amateurs. Since contingency generally pays out based on finishing position (and not P/I) CCS for example could say 3 wins at a single event in any classes paying contingency would immediately bump that rider to Expert status at the end of that event. My justification for that is because an Amateur in almost any race class who wins 3 races at a single event should be able to finish in the Top 10 and possibly even the Top 5 as an Expert in those same classes either immediately or in a short period of time (at a regular Regional event). This rule wouldn't apply to riders in their 1st season with CCS.

That's my idea!  :thumb:
Smites are a cowards way of feeling brave!   :jerkoff:
Mike Williams - 2 GSXR 750's
Former MW Region Expert #58
Racing exclusively with CCS since '96
MODERATOR

Noidly1

Mike- In reply to your other thread and this one;

I agree 100%

One thing that I would like to see is- a racers championship # be based on only one cc size class; ie all 600's, as their base class, and not any other size class they participate in.

Now this may make for some headaches when it comes to scoring a rider in dif. classes or the fact that to run a 600 un HW or UL, they'd have to change numberplates or bodywork with a dif # to run in those classes.

Sorry for the highjack Squirrel...
'08 R6, CCSGP44EX

twilkinson3

Quote from: squirrel22 on November 09, 2010, 02:40:32 PM
Is your example using someone who had earned 400+ the previous season as well? 
As you only get one bump down lifetime - no
example:
2009 season 300 pts total
2010 season 478 pts total never winning any race or even possibly never landing on the podium
2011 season comes around and you have the same small grids (6-7 per race) you would potentially hit the 400 point mark mid season once again never having won a single race, possibly having not even gotten a podium

I like the thinking behind your suggestion - just wanted to add the above thought to the discussion ( ahve not read all the way thru the replies yet - got mauled by work)

squirrel22

Quote from: twilkinson3 on November 11, 2010, 03:52:49 PM
As you only get one bump down lifetime - no
example:
2009 season 300 pts total
2010 season 478 pts total never winning any race or even possibly never landing on the podium
2011 season comes around and you have the same small grids (6-7 per race) you would potentially hit the 400 point mark mid season once again never having won a single race, possibly having not even gotten a podium

I like the thinking behind your suggestion - just wanted to add the above thought to the discussion ( ahve not read all the way thru the replies yet - got mauled by work)


I understand where you're coming from Todd.  CCS does reserve the right to downgrade anyone they feel isn't an Expert Level rider.  If someone fits your description and they are getting lapped in 5-6 laps in the expert class, then I imagine CCS would downgrade them back to amateur.

roadracer162

Here again that is if you base your "Expert" on the ability to have fast lap times. I suggest that the "Expert" rider is based less on lap times and more on the ability of the rider to make the appropriate decision, ride smooth and predictably.

Just becuase Ben Spies will lap a rider doesn't equate to that rider being an amateur.

I still believe that any rider that have raced enough races to garner 400 points also gives that rider seat time. Of course how that rider uses that seat time can be a point of debate.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

HAWK

Mark, the 400 points alone is not a good indicator of a riders fitness for expert. My first year with CCS I rode a Honda Hawk in UltraLW and GTlights. I got 400 points racing half the season but you need to look at where they came from, July round there were 2 on the grid at a double points weekend, garaunteed 60 points for finishing dead last. Sept weekend, 1 bike on the grid for another double points weekend, garaunteed 70 points for fininshing one lap. That is pretty much how the season went with me making about 430 points and never having raced elbow to elbow with anyone. I could do that with track days.

I've seen guys that spend 4 or 5 years working the amateur class and I think a rule like this is fine to address them but I think it needs a little fine tuning. As currently worded Squirrels rule would have bumped me about half way through my first full season of amateur (I broke my leg in a crash in the first event of my first season and missed almost half the season).  While many of us can ralate to struggling with a 3rd or 4th year amateur's domination of the class I think the rule needs to address them, not anybody that makes 400 points.
Paul Onley
CCS Midwest EX #413

Cowboy 6

Points bumps are not the only issue either. I know of someone who was bumped to expert because they finished dead last at the ROC.

There were only five on the grid but the rules state a "top five" finish. That rider was dead last (or next to it in) every race entered all year as well.

Somehow, dead last and top five should not be the same....
C6

www.NeedGod.com  ....   www.TPOParts.com  ....   www.Christiansportbike.com.com ....  www.woodcraft-cfm.com ....  www.ebcbrakes.com ....www.baxleycompanies.com

roadracer162

Paul, I thoroughly agree with you regarding the 400 points. My focus was that the 400 points does also imply that the rider did a certain amount of races to gain those points. A rider in Lightweight will reach the 400 points before the rider in middleweight will only because of the grid sizes. If you only race in the one as I do then it's equal for all the riders in that region. Of course when it comes to ROC then it's a different ball game.

It's kinda like that rider from another organization that competes as an Expert then moves to CCS and races as an amateur. In my thinking a rider that has been amateur for the past 4 years is no longer an amateur. That rider could have raced every race in the middleweight field and finished mid pack and not have enough points. On the other side if that rider, such as in your case, had ridden the lightweight stuff would have made those points in a very short time. I am not sure the 400 points is the appropriate level to determine enough experience but there must be some hard rules regarding moving to expert.

I say move everyone to expert and let the games begin.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

SV88

One of my best friends has competed for yrs as an AM and generally podiums however he never does enough race weekends to get the 400 points.  He is a  strong AM but isn't taking anything away from other AM (competing for a championship).   I don't believe that he should be bumped up.
I guess the main problem is with strong AMs remaining at that level year to year (The Crammer syndrom - 'when he beat up 8-10 yr old classmates in his Karate class)
Fastsv650/SVR6/Steve sv23
09R6rdrace,13KTM250xc enduro,03SV1000N, 99-02 sv650 project
ret. CCS MW/FL/SE 88  Moto A SSP 881

roadracer162

Why shouldn't he be bumped if he has all the qualities of an expert?
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.