Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule

Started by squirrel22, November 09, 2010, 09:13:27 AM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

squirrel22

I can appreciate that some guys earn a bunch of points, but still aren't ready to go expert.  However, I think that some people have taken advantage of the rule and go on to win 30 races in a row.  For this circumstance, I propose the following amendment:

Riders who have downgraded back to amateur are allowed to stay amateur until they win their 400th point.  They will be bumped to expert status the event immediately following the weekend they win their 400th point.
 

Example:
Rider X earns 430 points in 2010 and gets bumped to expert for 2011, but feels he isn't ready to go expert.  He downgrades back to amateur for the 2011 season.  After 3 race weekends of entering into and winning 4 races each weekend, he has amassed 420 points.  His 4th race weekend of the year will then be as an expert.  He has clearly shown that he is no longer a deserving amateur.

roadracer162

That makes sense. I always thought the goal was to become expert and the amateur class was the place to get my feet wet.

I believe that the contingencies and cash payouts should reflect that and does to some degree. I can only speculate that the benefits of staying amateur can be quite good for many.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

twilkinson3

One counterpoint - given grid sizes this last year (at least in the MW) if you ran most of the season in say LW (GP, SBK, SS) for instance it would be nearly impossible to NOT go over 400 points, not exactly what the rule was put in place to do originally I think but a recent issue with the grid sizes shrinking

squirrel22

Quote from: twilkinson3 on November 09, 2010, 12:50:08 PM
One counterpoint - given grid sizes this last year (at least in the MW) if you ran most of the season in say LW (GP, SBK, SS) for instance it would be nearly impossible to NOT go over 400 points, not exactly what the rule was put in place to do originally I think but a recent issue with the grid sizes shrinking

Is your example using someone who had earned 400+ the previous season as well? 

Team Spalding

What squirrel has proposed is a great idea.
Joel Spalding
CCS & ASRA #36

Sponsors: Michelin, Ducati Of Indy, Wife Cindy, Held Gloves, Southeast Sales.

Super Dave

The two tier system isn't working.  I'm sure someone will pull up my three tier system again from several years ago sometime here in the next few months.
Super Dave

apriliaman

How about this rule?
Back when it was  CCS-FUSA a few years ago to be able to race at the race of champions you must race in at least 5 races in a class to be able to race in that race in the event.
Now you can race in a class that you never raced the whole year.
Someone can just borrow a bike and win that race and they are the national champ and didnt even do a regular race in the season.
And it happened this year!!
Winner of at least 50 CCS Lightweight Regional Championships
3 National Championships
Top 10 plate holder since 2006

scubabill

Quote from: majicMARKer on November 09, 2010, 09:46:55 AM
I believe that the contingencies and cash payouts should reflect that and does to some degree. I can only speculate that the benefits of staying amateur can be quite good for many.

It might...lol
#39

roadracer162

Dave- The three tier does have merit and to some degree we do have that with ASRA being the top of that tier. The ASRA group certainly becomes more of the elite racers where they are some of the fastest racers in the group of CCS racers. it seems though that there are often larger Amateur groups compared to the Expert counterpart for that class.

Mark- The only problem  is that the current participation for the past few ROC events have been steadily declining. This year we had a lot of what you said with many racers never turning a wheel in the respective classes doing the ROC and even winning. It is what it is though.

Bill-You must move to Expert and I am sure you will do well.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

Noidly1

#9
I like squirrel's idea, however...

Some of the things I don't like about the 400 pt. rule is that someone can enter a crap load of races, ending in the rear, and accumulate the necessary pts. and get bumped.

Another is if someone races a class with a few riders, have a high performance index and/or maybe win a class championship and get bumped.

I believe the performance index would be a more representative indicator of ones eligibility of bumping, but not if there are only a few that enter that class.

I think that a more realistic approach would be to determine one's eligibility would be by their overall finish with the experts in each class or by their lap times for that class.

Just my .02 cents...

As for the 3 tier system; I am not familuar with it unless you are talking about something like what WERA has.
'08 R6, CCSGP44EX

roadracer162

#10
Noid- I guess it really depends on what "one" considers an expert. Is an expert someone that wins races consistently or is it a rider that is smooth, consistent, predictable or has a good track record as far as crashes?

I believe the "Expert" should possess the ability to make the right decisions at the right time as far as passing in particular. Being the fastest isn't a must to move to "Expert". I would also venture to say that the racer that participates in a large number of races have gained a considerable amount of riding experience that contributes to an Expert status(at least in my mind). Certainly the amateur that is running with the experts should be bumped to that expert field.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

squirrel22

I appreciate the discussion guys, I really do, but some of you are really starting to cloud the water.

This amendment is for people who have ALREADY DOWNGRADED BACK TO AMATEUR. 

SV88

I like this idea having gone from a strong Amateur season in 07 (700+ points) to a series of weak expert seasons.  In my case it was more complicated because while I was having my strong AM season, I was passing most experts.  Not the case in the next few seasons.

I would argue that a more realist criteria for expert status would be a combination of points and perf. index.
Fastsv650/SVR6/Steve sv23
09R6rdrace,13KTM250xc enduro,03SV1000N, 99-02 sv650 project
ret. CCS MW/FL/SE 88  Moto A SSP 881

roadracer162

So back to the focus of the thread. A rider that achieved enough points to go to Expert but downgraded to stay amateur and then begins to win amateur races in the following year should be bumped to the expert class during that year. I agree.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

GSXR RACER MIKE

#14
I described in this thread ( http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,25286.0.html ) the major flaw with the Performance Index (P/I) calculation and a solution to fixing it.

Using P/I (in the corrected way I described in that other thread) for calculating the Amateur jump point to Expert would be a good thing because it would be based on actual results (wins vs last place finishes), I think that calculation should be used in ALL situations for the Expert bump (including the 1st time). When using P/I if someone was finishing Top 3 constantly it would be heavily reflected in their adjusted points - they would get to 400 points quickly - but if they were constantly finishing poorly their adjusted points would be very low and it would be very difficult for them to reach the Expert jump point in a season. In my opinion the only time an Amateur who's reached the bump point should be allowed to finish out the season is if it's their 1st time as an Amateur.

Another twist on this is to have an alternate 'Sandbagger Calculation' that applies to Amateur racers that have raced for more than 1 season with CCS, this would be designed to stop people from remaining an Amateur (who finishes well) for years on end by only racing enough to keep them below the bump point (ultimately the sandbaggers ruin it for all the true Amateurs who feel they don't have a chance against the sandbaggers). This would actually be very simple and would also use the per race P/I calculation (not averaged calculation), CCS could come up with a P/I and number of races that they believe is a fair point where someone is obviously not an Amateur and should be bumped up to Expert status. If (for example only) CCS decided the number of races was 10 and the P/I was 900 then as soon as someone had 10 finishes that had a 900 P/I or above they would be bumped to Expert per the 'Sandbagger Calculation' for their next event. This doesn't mean 10 finishes in a row with a 900 P/I, it means ANY 10 finishes with a 900 P/I or above - here's an example of P/I's that would eventually count toward the bump:

785, 909, 1000, 965, 900, 920, 810, 1000, 740, 830, 975, 910, 500, 1000, 770, 935

The biggest decision with this is what P/I is appropriate and how many races to use, but I would imagine the 900 P/I and 10 individual races isn't too far off since it would represent numerous Top 3 finishes in average size Middleweight races. Another option not using P/I at all is to say (for example) a certain amount of finishes that are Top 2 - maybe 10 could work here as well.

Something I've also seen as a discouragement to true Amateur racers is what I call 'Contingency Snipers' who only show up to race at 1 or 2 events in a season strictly for the contingency at those events - when they clearly are not Amateur racers. My solution for that is a single event Amateur 'Contingency Sniper' rule for those who just hop from org to org cherry picking the highest contingency payouts from Amateurs. Since contingency generally pays out based on finishing position (and not P/I) CCS for example could say 3 wins at a single event in any classes paying contingency would immediately bump that rider to Expert status at the end of that event. My justification for that is because an Amateur in almost any race class who wins 3 races at a single event should be able to finish in the Top 10 and possibly even the Top 5 as an Expert in those same classes either immediately or in a short period of time (at a regular Regional event). This rule wouldn't apply to riders in their 1st season with CCS.

That's my idea!  :thumb:
Smites are a cowards way of feeling brave!   :jerkoff:
Mike Williams - 2 GSXR 750's
Former MW Region Expert #58
Racing exclusively with CCS since '96
MODERATOR

Noidly1

Mike- In reply to your other thread and this one;

I agree 100%

One thing that I would like to see is- a racers championship # be based on only one cc size class; ie all 600's, as their base class, and not any other size class they participate in.

Now this may make for some headaches when it comes to scoring a rider in dif. classes or the fact that to run a 600 un HW or UL, they'd have to change numberplates or bodywork with a dif # to run in those classes.

Sorry for the highjack Squirrel...
'08 R6, CCSGP44EX

twilkinson3

Quote from: squirrel22 on November 09, 2010, 02:40:32 PM
Is your example using someone who had earned 400+ the previous season as well? 
As you only get one bump down lifetime - no
example:
2009 season 300 pts total
2010 season 478 pts total never winning any race or even possibly never landing on the podium
2011 season comes around and you have the same small grids (6-7 per race) you would potentially hit the 400 point mark mid season once again never having won a single race, possibly having not even gotten a podium

I like the thinking behind your suggestion - just wanted to add the above thought to the discussion ( ahve not read all the way thru the replies yet - got mauled by work)

squirrel22

Quote from: twilkinson3 on November 11, 2010, 03:52:49 PM
As you only get one bump down lifetime - no
example:
2009 season 300 pts total
2010 season 478 pts total never winning any race or even possibly never landing on the podium
2011 season comes around and you have the same small grids (6-7 per race) you would potentially hit the 400 point mark mid season once again never having won a single race, possibly having not even gotten a podium

I like the thinking behind your suggestion - just wanted to add the above thought to the discussion ( ahve not read all the way thru the replies yet - got mauled by work)


I understand where you're coming from Todd.  CCS does reserve the right to downgrade anyone they feel isn't an Expert Level rider.  If someone fits your description and they are getting lapped in 5-6 laps in the expert class, then I imagine CCS would downgrade them back to amateur.

roadracer162

Here again that is if you base your "Expert" on the ability to have fast lap times. I suggest that the "Expert" rider is based less on lap times and more on the ability of the rider to make the appropriate decision, ride smooth and predictably.

Just becuase Ben Spies will lap a rider doesn't equate to that rider being an amateur.

I still believe that any rider that have raced enough races to garner 400 points also gives that rider seat time. Of course how that rider uses that seat time can be a point of debate.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

HAWK

Mark, the 400 points alone is not a good indicator of a riders fitness for expert. My first year with CCS I rode a Honda Hawk in UltraLW and GTlights. I got 400 points racing half the season but you need to look at where they came from, July round there were 2 on the grid at a double points weekend, garaunteed 60 points for finishing dead last. Sept weekend, 1 bike on the grid for another double points weekend, garaunteed 70 points for fininshing one lap. That is pretty much how the season went with me making about 430 points and never having raced elbow to elbow with anyone. I could do that with track days.

I've seen guys that spend 4 or 5 years working the amateur class and I think a rule like this is fine to address them but I think it needs a little fine tuning. As currently worded Squirrels rule would have bumped me about half way through my first full season of amateur (I broke my leg in a crash in the first event of my first season and missed almost half the season).  While many of us can ralate to struggling with a 3rd or 4th year amateur's domination of the class I think the rule needs to address them, not anybody that makes 400 points.
Paul Onley
CCS Midwest EX #413

Cowboy 6

Points bumps are not the only issue either. I know of someone who was bumped to expert because they finished dead last at the ROC.

There were only five on the grid but the rules state a "top five" finish. That rider was dead last (or next to it in) every race entered all year as well.

Somehow, dead last and top five should not be the same....
C6

www.NeedGod.com  ....   www.TPOParts.com  ....   www.Christiansportbike.com.com ....  www.woodcraft-cfm.com ....  www.ebcbrakes.com ....www.baxleycompanies.com

roadracer162

Paul, I thoroughly agree with you regarding the 400 points. My focus was that the 400 points does also imply that the rider did a certain amount of races to gain those points. A rider in Lightweight will reach the 400 points before the rider in middleweight will only because of the grid sizes. If you only race in the one as I do then it's equal for all the riders in that region. Of course when it comes to ROC then it's a different ball game.

It's kinda like that rider from another organization that competes as an Expert then moves to CCS and races as an amateur. In my thinking a rider that has been amateur for the past 4 years is no longer an amateur. That rider could have raced every race in the middleweight field and finished mid pack and not have enough points. On the other side if that rider, such as in your case, had ridden the lightweight stuff would have made those points in a very short time. I am not sure the 400 points is the appropriate level to determine enough experience but there must be some hard rules regarding moving to expert.

I say move everyone to expert and let the games begin.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

SV88

One of my best friends has competed for yrs as an AM and generally podiums however he never does enough race weekends to get the 400 points.  He is a  strong AM but isn't taking anything away from other AM (competing for a championship).   I don't believe that he should be bumped up.
I guess the main problem is with strong AMs remaining at that level year to year (The Crammer syndrom - 'when he beat up 8-10 yr old classmates in his Karate class)
Fastsv650/SVR6/Steve sv23
09R6rdrace,13KTM250xc enduro,03SV1000N, 99-02 sv650 project
ret. CCS MW/FL/SE 88  Moto A SSP 881

roadracer162

Why shouldn't he be bumped if he has all the qualities of an expert?
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

HAWK

Quote from: SV88 on November 13, 2010, 12:53:30 PM
He is a  strong AM but isn't taking anything away from other AM (competing for a championship).   I don't believe that he should be bumped up.

How do you figure he's not taking anything away from the other AM riders. You say he can usually podium, that means that he may very well push an AM rider going for a championship off the podium. There is a 5 point gap from first to second and a 4 point gap from second to third and a 2 point gap from third to fourth, if he pushs a rider from 3rd to 4th then he has taken away 2 points from that rider, now let's say that that rider takes second in the championship by 1 point at the end of the season.

All of the is in addition to the contingency issue.

I do believe that there should be better oversight of the downgrades but a midseason bump has to be based on more than simply 400 points, the issue is never that black and white, if it was there would not be a downgrade policy.
Paul Onley
CCS Midwest EX #413

roadracer162

I guess the two scenarios shows a big descrepancy between the two, where a potentially capable rider(capable of a podium) doesn't do enough races to stay below the "400 bump points level" and the other rider being able to achieve 400 points without blistering pace. So what should the criteria be for moving to expert? Shouldn't there be an assessment rider ability to stay safe, make the appropriate decisions and the like? Isn't it the ability to maintain a predictable racing line? Or is it based solely on that blistering pace? Is it that he rider moving to expert must be able to compete for the podium in the expert class?

I must tell you, there are some very fast Amateurs out there. There are many Amateurs that have achieved the ability to ride in a controlled manner with smoothness, predictable decisions, and consistent pace that in my opinion are the qualities of an Expert. So where do you draw the line?
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

SV88

Quote from: HAWK on November 13, 2010, 09:45:49 PM
How do you figure he's not taking anything away from the other AM riders. You say he can usually podium, that means that he may very well push an AM rider going for a championship off the podium. There is a 5 point gap from first to second and a 4 point gap from second to third and a 2 point gap from third to fourth, if he pushs a rider from 3rd to 4th then he has taken away 2 points from that rider, now let's say that that rider takes second in the championship by 1 point at the end of the season.

All of the is in addition to the contingency issue.
What I meant is that he's not posing a championship threat to other AMs.  He is a bit of a nuisance factor in the sense that he is taking a few points away from other AMs and contingency however all the other AMs competing for a championship have to deal with him on an equal basis...
Fastsv650/SVR6/Steve sv23
09R6rdrace,13KTM250xc enduro,03SV1000N, 99-02 sv650 project
ret. CCS MW/FL/SE 88  Moto A SSP 881

Noidly1

Quote from: majicMARKer on November 14, 2010, 09:59:47 PM
I guess the two scenarios shows a big descrepancy between the two, where a potentially capable rider(capable of a podium) doesn't do enough races to stay below the "400 bump points level" and the other rider being able to achieve 400 points without blistering pace. So what should the criteria be for moving to expert? Shouldn't there be an assessment rider ability to stay safe, make the appropriate decisions and the like? Isn't it the ability to maintain a predictable racing line? Or is it based solely on that blistering pace? Is it that he rider moving to expert must be able to compete for the podium in the expert class?

I must tell you, there are some very fast Amateurs out there. There are many Amateurs that have achieved the ability to ride in a controlled manner with smoothness, predictable decisions, and consistent pace that in my opinion are the qualities of an Expert. So where do you draw the line?
Here is an idea.
Now this may fall into some bias but, what if we have a panel of experts evaluate the candidates.
This places the question into their actual abilities and not their stats.
'08 R6, CCSGP44EX

squirrel22

Guys, the debate is not over the qualifications of an expert.  There are some amateurs that fit into both categories; the difference here is that we are talking about racers who have ALREADY GRADUATED TO EXPERT STATUS AND DOWNGRADED BACK TO AMATEUR STATUS.

Really fast amateurs: If they have already downgraded, and they hit 400 points again, they go up to expert!

Racers with ghost grids: If they hit 400 points again, go race expert!   First, if they are racing against nobody, then they'll never gain the experience of racing with others, which is a desired trait of expert racers.  Second, you need to enter at least 12 races to gain 400 points, and that is assuming you win all of them.  So these guys would have to enter at least 24 races and win all of them in order for this rule to apply to them.  They go expert.

HAWK

Squirrel, go back and reread my post, 400 points is a threshold not an ejection seat.
Paul Onley
CCS Midwest EX #413

Super Dave

Ok, here was my concept back, well, it was six years ago now.  Honestly, it becomes tiring with these things, so... 


I wrote out an option that would have helped a lot of folks in making decisions in racing...remaining involved, or not, I'm sure.  The page where I lay out the rule is on this page...
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,7584.75.html

Start of the thread is here...
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,7584.0.html

At that time, CCS was operating track days and selling a "trackday card" too.  So, you'll see references to a "CCS Sport Rider" card or something...

My rule follows, but it is probably easier to read with my bold points and all on the page that I had it...
Quote
Change of CCS rules to:

2.2.4 Riders will be issued Regional Series licenses as Novice, Sportsman, or Expert
Call them what you will, this is just an idea.

A.  CCS Officials will issue Expert licenses to those riders with proven experience or ability as follows:

(1.)  Applicants who are renewing a CCS Expert license or who are applying with an Expert license from one of the racing organizations listed in 2.2.1

Pretty easy.  If you are, you will be, right?  Additionally, we've added the "novice" rating.

B.  CCS Officials will issue Sportsman licenses to those riders with safe and reasonable ability and experience as follows:

(1.)  Applicants who are renewing a CCS Amateur (as per current nomenclature) or who are applying with an amateur license from one of the racing organizations listed in section 2.2.1

Ok, this is new, but it's kind of the same...if you're a current amateur, well, you're gonna be in the current new system, etc.  Pretty basic.

(2.)  Any Novice Rider who in the opinion of CCS Officials has safe and reasonable ability.

There's the window.  At some point, a rider may just be "too fast" for a novice class.  They may not be "seasoned" in the experienced way, but they may certainly have safe and reasonable ability.  I think it's fair to say, move them to Sportsman.  There are no rewards other than personal in the Novice class anyway.  (And often that's all there is anywhere else anyway...LOL!)

C.  CCS Officials will issue Novice licenses to riders that meet any of the following criteria:

(1.)  Riders that are applying with Provisional Amateur/Novice licenses from one of the racing organizations listed in 2.2.1

Again, pretty basic... 

(2.)  Riders applying with a certificate indicating completion of an approved Riders School.

(3.)  Riders applying with a CCS Sport Rider card.

This make sense?  Start 'em out in the new stuff.  Get them some experience.  Think of it as a longer riding school...

Eliminate line 2.2.5 and replace with the following STATUS CHANGE lines...

2.2.5  STATUS CHANGES -  Riders who change in status during the season will not carry points to their new status

I figure that it's a whole new ball game, so why carry it.  Novices will not have points anyway.

A.  Expert riders will be granted the opportunity to be moved to Sportsman status.

Ok, THIS one is the big one. 

Some riders may just feel out gunned in expert races because of ability, finances, time, opportunity, etc.  Why make a guy run around in somethingth place racing with no one?  The amateur/sportsman classes will only be slightly slower at the top, but the broader range of speeds in the class certainly opens up the opportunity for "racing"...and that part of the fun.  Is this why we loose some riders after those couple of years? 

This will allow more riders to feel as though there is an even playing field for them.  There have been some celebrated opportunities for some riders to stay amateur or to move from expert when seemingly they were reasonably competitive.  Give everyone the opportunity to choose their destiny....?

B.  Sportsman riders must petition to be moved to Expert.  Riders who in the opinion of CCS Officials has the ability and reasonable experience for Expert competition will be moved to Expert.  CCS reserves the right to deny Expert Status to any Sportsman rider that may not meet this criteria.

Again, big.

Prior rules dictated amatuer riders moving up after scoring 500 points in a 12 month period, winning a Series Championship, or finishing in the top five in any class at the Race of Champions.

The status change would fall into the hands of the rider.  I would suppose that there needs to be some criteria.  Times, finishes, something.  Certainly, a list of riders could be made that gives them the opportunity to elect to take the change.  Some will take it.  Some might not.

Why would someone?  The opportunity for the purse, qualifying, etc.  Why would someone not do it?  Lack of opportunity to race regularly, not feeling ready to race against potentially faster riders, or just not wanting to...
Super Dave

squirrel22

Quote from: HAWK on November 16, 2010, 10:10:48 AM
Squirrel, go back and reread my post, 400 points is a threshold not an ejection seat.


I got you Paul.  I did need to reread that!

I will say though, that barring the creation of a council to oversee Expert Advances (which will take a lot of time to handle all of the cases every year) there needs to be a standard.  Currently that standard is 400 points, so I went with that.  Either way you slice it if you meet the standard TWICE, to Expert you go.

If maybe there was a better standard in the first place, there would be no downgrades; I was simply addressing what I have seen twice now as gross abuse of the system.  My idea was to have a simple, non-loop-hole answer to the situation.

HAWK

I agree that the current system is being abused but the answer is in enforcement of the existing rules. The downgrade request is just that, a request that needs to be subdtiantiated with a valid argument and denied if the argument and performance fail to bear it out.

In my particular case I as I mentioned I made 400 points without ever actullly racing anyone, to make matters worse I was forced to sit out the entire next season due to a serious accident at work. I requested a downgrade and then raced in 2008 as an AM. I made 400 points by the end of the 3rd or 4th weekend which with your proposal would have bumped me up to EX. The fact is that I was running with about 5 or 6 guys and racing tooth and nail every round, I was getting the experience that I felt I needed to go up. At the point I was 46 years old and had only been racing for 1 year (if you ignore my season down due to work injury) If you had bumped me to EX at the point I would have left the sport, I had seen these guys when they would lap me at the end of the GT races and was not ready to ride with them.
Paul Onley
CCS Midwest EX #413

twilkinson3

Hmm maybe a meet in the middle - 400 points is the auto bump up at the moment and Squirrel is trying to get soemthing to rebump someone for bumping down when they probably shouldn't have, what if the next season auto bump up was say 600 points for a mid season bump - just offering another thought, nothing says it would have to be the same number of points, 600ish should let you run a significant portion of the season even on smaller grids and see what's what

squirrel22

Quote from: HAWK on November 16, 2010, 02:15:47 PM
I agree that the current system is being abused but the answer is in enforcement of the existing rules. The downgrade request is just that, a request that needs to be subdtiantiated with a valid argument and denied if the argument and performance fail to bear it out.

In my particular case I as I mentioned I made 400 points without ever actullly racing anyone, to make matters worse I was forced to sit out the entire next season due to a serious accident at work. I requested a downgrade and then raced in 2008 as an AM. I made 400 points by the end of the 3rd or 4th weekend which with your proposal would have bumped me up to EX. The fact is that I was running with about 5 or 6 guys and racing tooth and nail every round, I was getting the experience that I felt I needed to go up. At the point I was 46 years old and had only been racing for 1 year (if you ignore my season down due to work injury) If you had bumped me to EX at the point I would have left the sport, I had seen these guys when they would lap me at the end of the GT races and was not ready to ride with them.

In this case Hawk, you would be the exception to the rule.  In light of this, I think CCS should accept appeals on status after the 400 points are reached for those who have already downgraded.  The criteria on these appeals should be that you are more than one year after being downgraded, or have a performance index of less than 500.

HAWK

I'd like to believe that I'm the kind of guy the petition ruke is there for and that your proposal is intended to address the exception. What I'm trying to point out is that the petitions need to be handled more strictly and the problem goes away.
Paul Onley
CCS Midwest EX #413

roadracer162

I believe you all have some very good points. What I believe and act accordingly is that it is up to the rider(s) to self police. On occasion there have been some riders that claim to be amateurs but have more than sufficient skill and speed, coming from other organizations, to be classified "expert". I approach the "Event organizer" and make my thoughts known. He has been gracious to at least look into each request for inquiry and he has acted appropriately. I suggest the same can be done in whatever region you may be racing. Some times it will come out in your favor and other times it just won't.

For me racing in only the Sportsman classes on a 17 year old bike I would never have been bumped to "Expert". I requested the bump based on the recommendation of the event organizer
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

Peter998

2010 was my first year racing. I had a great year and finished 2nd overall in the Atlantic series. The guy that won the overall was bumped to expert last year and took his once in a lifetime downgrade to compete and win as an amateur. I have nothing against him, he is an excellent and very dedicated racer, but the reality is that he won 8 regional championships racing as an amateur but definitely competing on an expert level. I agree with Squrrel22 about the downgraded rider being bumped up again when they hit a certain points / rating milestone or even a combination of both. The question is what should it be?
Peter Meringolo 2010 Expert/ASRA # 998
ECS Racing

mikendzel

Quote from: Peter998 on November 23, 2010, 01:14:40 PM
2010 was my first year racing. I had a great year and finished 2nd overall in the Atlantic series. The guy that won the overall was bumped to expert last year and took his once in a lifetime downgrade to compete and win as an amateur. I have nothing against him, he is an excellent and very dedicated racer, but the reality is that he won 8 regional championships racing as an amateur but definitely competing on an expert level. I agree with Squrrel22 about the downgraded rider being bumped up again when they hit a certain points / rating milestone or even a combination of both. The question is what should it be?

I know who you are talking about here, but I don't think he is the target of this rule.  The person you are talking about raced every weekend except Daytona, and did 8-10 races per weekend.  He actually didn't win all that much, he just raced a ton.  There are some other racers over the past 3 years who have downgraded and actually won almost everything they entered.  A dude from Florida downgraded from expert and won a ridiculous 90% of the races he entered.  He was at VIR, and would have qualified for the AMA Daytona Sportbike race.  That's stupid.  It is what it is, albeit I do think this rule is a good idea.  Or at least CCS policing the issue a little better....