Race Fuel

[stumpy]

I am thinking of using VP Ulitimate 4 or something close for road america for a couple extra horse, does anybody use it without remapping or tuning and do you get any gains? I have an 01' f4i, with a power commander.

[racer865]

While dyno tuning my sv for daytona I decided to test vp ultimate 4 against 93 octane pump gas that we were using. Without changing anything except the fuel I picked up 2.5 hp on a couple of runs and 3 hp on a couple more runs. We were using a dynojet dyno and the bike is a 1999 sv in supersport legal tune. I have had other people tell me they tried same thing and didnt pickup any power gains. Your results may vary. Hope this helps.

[Pierre - Team PMR]

I have an 01' f4i, with a power commander.

So I take it that you figured out your problem with your commander after BFR?

[StumpysWife]

PC has a new one on the way!  Whooo hooo!  Apparently, the old one had a "bug".  They were way cool about it.  See ya at RA!!! :D

[Super Dave]

But, will 2.5 or even 10Hp really make a big difference in your lap times, Stumpy?

I sell Power Mist.  I can give you some guidelines, but, bottomline, I wouldn't worry about it right now.

Back to HP...

Go back to Blackhawk and put me on an R1 or a GSXR1000 against me on my R6.  MAYBE I would go a half second faster or a tiny bit better.  That's probably 30 to 40 more HP.  Buy some Vesrah brake pads.  That would be better spent money.  (When the fuel guy tells you to do something else...)

Make sense?

[stumpy]

sure, but I figure on all the straights at RA. All the H.P. will help. I guess I still need to get the gearing setup too :-/  Any Ideas...

  Oh and my power commander is coming back on Tues! (as lips the wife said) :-X   It had a virus I guess... I should of put the bike in the trailer at Blawkhawk It was taken advantage of of out my sight ;D and yes it does feel dirty :o

[Super Dave]

Gearing?  Seat of the pants, stock up front and one bigger in back.  That's what I'm gonna try.  I think I had something similar to that at RA on my GSXR600...and my ZX6R's.

Drop me an e-mail about what you were using for gearing at BFR.  We can talk about some suspension stuff.  

Pierre, you too.  

[MightyDuc Racing]

SD...been wanting to try Power Mist, but even with the racer program they sent me, the shipping kills me.  Any ideas?

[Super Dave]

Shipping is the killer, yes.  

I usually get half a truck load at a time.  Only way for me to do it.  Even then, it does actually cost me a little over $1 per gallon to get it.

Get some friends together and get four drums, that would be a pallet.  That makes it somewhat reasonable.  I think Rick has a different shipper for Florida, but I might be wrong.

[r6_philly]

how many gallons does a usual race weekend require?

What do you think of practicing with pump gas and race with race fuel, would it somehow mess up your rhythm?

[Super Dave]

How much does it take?  I though you raced?

Mess up things by changing?  For me, it would.  I have no depth perception, so I really rely on a certain rhythm about a track.  I can get stuck in a rut at times, especially after a school and then trying to re-do my rhythm.

Some can do it, but if it's a good fuel, it should change the RPM from which you can start your exit from the corner.  

[Steviebee]

hmmmmm Dave on an R1 .. Vs.   Dave on a R6 ????  


Stumpy,  sup man.  Got word today my wheels fixed !!  yesss ..  now just gotta put the rest of the bike back together.

I've been thinking aobut race gas.  (Only cause i had a couple of top 10 spots.)  My motor is all stock, only thing done for any extra power is a full yoshi exhaust (came with the bike).   Race gass and a PC might make it possible for me to pass the fast guys on the straight.   Maybe ??  It should help lap times a little bit.  few tenths ?  maybe  .5 secs ??

But I dont think it will help much on the rest of the track.  or help me finish better ?  at least now.  I've got a lot to learn about racing/passing and stuff.  Pluss its 40 bucks instead of 8 bucks for regular gass.

Ofcourse the guys running race gas are laughing to themselves right now !! hehe heheh.   IKE, Benji, Josh ??  You out there ?  Are you guys running to good stuff ??

[Super Dave]

Are some guys using a better race fuel? Yes, but I will not reveal who is and who is not.  Not my job to do that.

But, Steve, at this point I don't think it's something that you need to do, as an expense or something that will necessarily make you go around someone faster.  Still much easier to set up the bike and do the right things riding.

[roadrashroeser]

2 wins 4 seconds and a 3rd at RA with 93 octane, no need for race fuel in Am club racing save your money for next year when your an expert and you need that extra hp. My thoughts and opinnion of course.

[Super Dave]

There you go...  I don't use racing fuel for more HP, I'm looking for better, faster acceleration.  That's the whole thing in this game...getting from A to B faster.

[Steviebee]

newbie opinions here .
As im new to the whole racing thing, I've been asking about race fuel.

Why, now some people on the "boards, this and other ones, say oh, you need it!,  and some say dont waste your money till your fighting for top 5"

So my goal is to fight for the top 5, heck i had a 7th my first race so i think i can get there!  

I dont have a bike 100% set up for racing, heck it was my street bike.  It came with a full yoshi exhaust system and thats all for power add ons.  So obviously i've been wondering about more power (race gas/ Power commander).  Just like Tim the Tool Man Talor !!!  ughh uughh.

But my first big "upgrade" other than what was needed to qualify for racing, was the full suspension done,  front and back.

It seems that race gas and or power adders like a powercommander would make me rely on HP instead of corner speed.  Which at this point in my learing career, i want to brake/corner/and get on the gas  as good as possible.  When i can hit the limit of braking / cornering / accelrating off the corner of the bike,  then I want more power !!!  Cause then i will be able to use the power !!

But man its just killing me thinking that if i had a few more HP i could have passed a guy on the straight.

[Super Dave]

If you go to the post about weight vs HP...  I put it pretty well there...

Larry Denning is a very fast Yamaha contingency racer.  He has an R1 and an R6.  Let's figure that there's 30HP between the two.  He can only go about one half to three quarters of a second faster on the R1 vs the R6.  

So, I can't supply you with a fuel that will give you 30HP, unless you're so far off that the fuel would get your "jettting" back into the ball park.

As for passing on the straight...  Exit speed.

Steve, most things in the motorcycle industry are based on HYPE rather than some practicality.  Oval track racing is based on something being practical.  A guy in a car has to realize an actual drop in his times to want to use a product.  The car is important.  In motorcycle road racing, the rider is very important.  

[MightyDuc Racing]

I was told by BCM to go ahead and start running race gas in my bike due to all the high perf stuff and compression.  I don't want to spend $9 a gallon, so what's everybody's take on the race gas at the track?  I know they sell it at Moroso in several different grades, all for under $5 per gallon.  What's the big difference (if anything other than oxygenation) and which octane do you recommend if coming from the track pumps?  I'm probably gonna go with 102, but they might even have 112.  Opinions?  TIA

[Super Dave]

Well, you're dealing with "pool" fuel.  It's made in huge batches, it gets transported in vehicles that have had many different chemicals in them, and it gets placed in storage at the track where the containers are exposed to varing elements.  And you don't know what was in the containers before.  

Consistency.  You can't have it with fuel like that.

Those are old 70's tech fuels that usually utilize a good amount of lead to create a higher octane level.  They burn slowly with a lot of debris, and they create heat.  At $5 a gallon, it's kind of a rip.  

A 102 fuel might be unleaded.  Watch out.  The gravity of those fuels is quite different from a leaded racing fuel.  Oxygenated?  No way for a leaded, but the 102, might be an unleaded oxygenated.  In reality, it's probably a worked over premium pump gas, which has oxygenation.  All the dyno tests that I have seen by trusted car engine builders out east and here in the Midwest seem to show that those unleadeds come out exactly the same as pump gas.  

[MightyDuc Racing]

Okay, so if you were me and couldn't really afford $9 per gallon for fuel, what would you do?

[Super Dave]

Get a second job.

 ;D

Seriously, you're limited to what you have.  And that can create problems.  Anyone sell something else down there that you can get in a container?  Not something that is shipped in a truck and then put in one, but something that is shipped from the point of "build" in a new container.  That can be a big issue too.  

I would much rather run what I use mixed down with pump gas over buying track fuel.  At least I would be stepping in the right direction.  Street gas does have to be somewhat consistent.  Huge batches, and it gets used rather quickly.  Race fuel...well, your mileage may vary on the large manufacturers.  

I think you're getting the picture on why I use what I do.  

[MightyDuc Racing]

So it would be okay to buy like 112 and mix it with 93 pump gas?  I think I can get some Nutec locally at a decent price from one of the car shops that runs some race teams.

[james-redsv]

Mightyduc what is your compression ratio? You can run 93 pump up to about 12-1 without any problems. You should be able to tell when the bike starts knocking if there isnt enough octane. I have run  race gas you get at the tracks with Ok results, 76 and Sunoco, couldnt tell any difference over 87 pump gas. I have tried Vp ult 4 and by the seat of my pants dyno the bike actually seemed to run worst than on pump 87 which I normally run. You get the best, fastest burn from the lowest octane you can get away with, which means more power. BTW you can mix race gas and pump to save some $$ if you need more octane. ;D Race gas does make the bike run super clean, no fouled plugs and a nice white powder look inside the exaust. 8)

[MightyDuc Racing]

I found some 112 octane VP for $6.05 or 116 for $7.45.  Gonna try the 116 mixed 1/2 with 93 pump gas I think at Moroso and see how it does.  Opinions?

[MightyDuc Racing]

Oh yeah...11.8:1, but I just can't afford any more motor repairs so I don't want to risk it anymore.  I'd really like to have just one troublefree weekend before the season is over. ;)

[Super Dave]

I found some 112 octane VP for $6.05 or 116 for $7.45.  Gonna try the 116 mixed 1/2 with 93 pump gas I think at Moroso and see how it does.  Opinions?

What's that?  VP C11 or C12 would probably be the fuel's that I would think would work in this application.

As for pump gas in higher compression motors, it really depends upon the size of the bore and the combustion chamber shape.  

And as for octane, the thought that a higher octane fuel makes less power and burns slower is a "wives tale".  Fuel is chemical, and some high octane fuels that are commonly available do burn slow, but that's just their nature because they are old tech fuels.  However, a fuel that I use quite regularly (TO137) has a MON of 120+, and on some scales is as much as 147.  It kicks the living daylights out of just about anything.  This fuel does not burn slow. Really depends upon lots of things.

[james-redsv]

I was talking about pump gas, Dave. The 87 pump gas burns faster the 93, and thats no wives tail. ;D Race fuel is different as you said.

[Super Dave]

You think so?  I wouldn't agree.  I have done a lot of work in the power equipment industry.  In general, the "premium fuels"  created more heat and debris in their cobustion chambers.  You could look in the motor and tell the customer what they were using and be pretty much spot on.  Even then, they are made in huge batches, so it's really hard to say what you're really getting in pump gas.

Whether they necessarily burn slower, I don't think that's the case.  Current street gasolines are not very exciting.

[james-redsv]

Correct me if Im wrong, a Hi comp motor needs a slower burning fuel so it wont knock or ping. Right? The reason a motor knocks is the fuel is igniting too fast or soon. 87 pump gas burns faster so it will make a Hi comp motor knock. 93 pump burns slower so the the Hi comp motor doesnt knock. Octane in this case slows the burn rate. Simply use the lowest octane pump gas that will not let your motor knock and it will make the most power because you are using the fastest burning fuel. This is in simple terms as Im not a chemist and have seen this explaned in more tecnical terms on the Sunoco web site and the Unical sites. This is pretty much the accepted facts for pump gas, now race gas is totally different. You are correct that the 87 burns much cleaner than the 93. ::)

[r6_philly]

octane dictate the ignition point (temperature) rather than the rate of burn. As compression rise in the chamber, the pressure of the air/fuel mixture rises. Lower octane pump fuel have a lower ignition point. So what would happen in a high compression engine is that the air/fuel mixture may be compressed so much that the internal temperature passes the ignition point of the fuel BEFORE the plug sparks. Hence pre-ignition and the knocking. But if your motor can use 87 octane gas and not knock, it will have a better chance of burning throughly thus burning more clean. If you use too high of an octane in a normal motor, it may not ignite all that well because of too low compression, thus loosing power when you use 112 octane race gas.

Actually rate of burning actually have to do with the content/make up of the fuel. So is the power release potential of the fuel. Oxgenated fuel can produce more power per unit because it will release more energy when it is burning, because of the content.

I do want to know the difference between MR1 and the Untimate 4. VP claims the same power gains, but there is gotta be some differences.

My bike showed 4 extra hp's and a slightly better time to power curve when using MR1, dyno'ed within 5 minutes after switching from pump fuel.

[Decreasing_Dave]

My bike showed 4 extra hp's and a slightly better time to power curve when using MR1, dyno'ed within 5 minutes after switching from pump fuel.

Hey Philly,

Do you have a pipe on that R6 and what are you using for jetting?  I've been running VP Performance 101 and my R6 has been running great.  I tried VP Ultimate 4 and I had a big hole right off idle.  It was really hard to launch or get out of turns smoothly.  

I'm running stock jetting for the 2000 R6 with the exception of the needles being shimmed .020.  All I have is an M4 slip-on.

I'd like to jet to run Ultimate 4, can you render advice

TIA,
D. Dave

[r6_philly]

I have a Micron full system. Dynojet needles and 142 main jets. It is still a little rich with pump gas, but when you but in MR1 it actually leans it enough to keep the line close. I think I am going to try 140 mains from Dynojet. Needles are set to 3 from the top.

From what I learned at the dyno, if you want to set up for race fuel, jet your bike a little richer at midrange, but not a whole lot. So when you run pump gas it is a little richer, and it would be just right with race fuel. The MR1 gave it a little extra everywhere above 8-9 k with a total of 4 hp on top. But what is more important probably is my bike got to power about 1/10 second faster with the MR1, which might mean half a bike length coming out of corners  ;D

What was interesting: I raced last season with a mixed kit. It ran great and got me some good times and finishes. But when I put it on the dyno, it was REAL rich, and was slow to power. The curve on top was great, fat and free, but accelaration sucked. It didn't really feel that way, but comparing the dyno graph really told the story. Just goes to show how it may feel one way and be another  :o

As for the hole, I have a huge hole between 6-8k that no matter what jetting I used, was still there. MR1 mixed it half way, but with pump gas there is about a 10 hp drop. It may be the pipe I guess. But I think most R6's are soft below 8k and you will see a hole one way or the other. Just don't go below that :) gear it right and never get out of power

[Super Dave]

Hey, Dave...

I've got a Micron full system for a pre '02 R6.  Interested?  It was used for some dyno testing my '03, but it doesn't fit with bodywork.

Drop me a note?  visionsprt@netwurx.net

[MightyDuc Racing]

C112 VP is what I wound up buying from them Dave.  Gonna mix it 50/50 with 93 pump gas and see how it goes this weekend.  Thanks for all the help. :)

[Super Dave]

C12...  Ok, that would be decent.  T111 is what we bump guys to in SCCA, etc that use C12...  I think that will be a good start for you.

[MightyDuc Racing]

So I done good?  At least for now anyways? ;D

[MELK-MAN]

Have a decent budget but didnt want a new bike. Decided to work on the f4 a bit rather than spend 8-10 grand to race prep a 03 bike. Started with 95 hp on pump gas with a 2-brothers full exst. With some jetting, 4 deg. advance, and Ultimate 4 fuel, went to 101.7. More importantly on the f4, got rid of a 10 HP drop at 8k-9k. THAT was noticeable on the track in all kinds of ways i wont go into. 50$ for 5 gal?? sucks but beats big cash for a new bike. Spent LOTS of money on SUSPENSION first however i will point out. THis picked up seconds (plural) per lap..

[eroeder288]

i have a honda CBR 600 F2 which is slow compared to the newer bikes but i tried VP race fuels and it just feels like the bike runs better. If you have the money or are in the race for a championship use the VP gas

[cbrf4_269]

S.D.  My girl and I have been running EBC sinder race brake pads.  I have been thinking about going to Vesrah pads.  I want to get the best out there.  I am an expert racer and will be getting my r6 down at vir.  

Can you let me know if I will have to blast my rotors and how do the Vesrah differ from the EBC race pads.  I have tried the Ferodo and did not like them, so I switched with EBC, but I would imagine there is better out there.  My sponsorship with Castrol gives me a great deal with their brake fluid and it made a HUGE difference, but now I am looking into different brake pads.

Thanks SD!!!!

[H-man]

Hey CBR,

I'm not Super Dave, but allow me to try help.

I recenly switched to Vesrah pads and love 'em.  Before switching, I spoke with a Vesrah rep. who recommended using contact cleaner and a Scoth-brite pad versus glass bead blasting.

I will also suggest that you use the red Scoth-brite pad not the typical green one.  The red pad is designed for use on metal.  It's available in any hardware store.

H-man