A Question for the CCS Racer

[vnvbandit]

Hangup and race!   

[kvanengen]

No, why would I want to drop another $400 in a race program. Remember there was a day when we didn't use transmitters and everything worked out. If i'm forced to buy one the money will just come out of my race entry fee budget.

[MrMeat]

MyLaps seems to be a much better system than the MyRacingBio is, with regards to lost races, misplaced racers, and time to post after race.  The money it costs to get an AMB is worth the reliable lap times for me and my competitors.

[Rob 315]

Explore other options as in what - Not racing?  Most motorcycle race orgs are using the AMB system or similar and either requires you to have your own or rent one...

as in now there's nothing keeping them at ccs, as opposed to racing with Wera.  Duh.

[roadracer162]

MyLaps seems to be a much better system than the MyRacingBio is, with regards to lost races, misplaced racers, and time to post after race.  The money it costs to get an AMB is worth the reliable lap times for me and my competitors.

I must agree that Mylaps is probably better based on all of the comments of actual use. Consider that Myracingbio is a free to the racer entity(Thanks Russel Brown). Certainly the deficits is not caused by what Russell has done but more the interface of the information provided by CCS and the Myracingbio system.

The only official information is provided by CCS as far as finishing order. The only official lap time is provided by CCS. For me I rely on my own lap times that I record and not any other time. I find the CCS times are a  nice to know kinda thing but I don't count on it for development of my bike or Me as a rider.

[Doctor]

Does this have anything to do with the fact that AHRMA is using AMB and the combined event? I can't afford to by a transponder, much less pay a rental fee for one. The Westhold system is leased as I understand it, so why not lease the new system instead and keep doing things as we have been? If I have to buy one or even rent one, in addition to paying a licensing fee, a gate fee per person that I bring with me (My family) and entry fees, then I would suggest that those who but get their first race entry for each event be set at the same price as additional races for that event. Then for those who cannot buy the system and need to rent a transponder, keep their entry fee for the first race of an event at the same price that it is now. If this is truly a cost saving measure, then carry that cost savings over into the entry fees of those who are actually buying the transponders. I would assume that a portion of our entry fees have been used to pay for the lease of the Westhold system already, so there really should be no need for a rental fee for the new units, as the money needed to pay for the rental Westhold units could be now applied to the AMB system. Let those who purchase the units have a discount from the entry fee.

A scoring system of some sort is something that CCS needs to keep doing business. I do not feel it appropriate to charge the racer for this however. It is the same as taking your car to be worked on and then being forced to buy the tools that are used to fix your car, in addition to the the labor and the parts used.

My vote is to either stick with the current system, or for CCS to purchase the new system and then as they sell units to the racers, give them a discount for their entry fees. Making it cost more to race is not going to help increase the grids at all. Grids were down this year due to money and the economy. If you make it cost an additional 420 dollars for racers to even get out there, it will be the last year that the organization will be in business. This is really the worst possible time to propose this kind of an expense.

Just my 2 cents.

[Super Dave]

I can't afford to by a transponder, much less pay a rental fee for one...
A scoring system of some sort is something that CCS needs to keep doing business. I do not feel it appropriate to charge the racer for this however. It is the same as taking your car to be worked on and then being forced to buy the tools that are used to fix your car, in addition to the the labor and the parts used.

Well, first off, shop labor includes costs of shop tools. 

Next, when you've been paying entry fees (this was covered earlier) we've been paying an extra $5 or something for the system since around 2001. 

[Doctor]

That is kind of my point though Dave, keep that 5 bucks in the fees and switch units, that is fine. But charging the same entry fees and then charging for the equipment in addition is not cool.

As for my analogy, I beg to differ, as I had 100 thousand into my tools when I was an ASE Master Tech. I had to buy the tools myself in order to fix the customer's car. I couldn't go to the customer and say "Hey, I need you to buy a 1 7/8 inch wrench so that I can fix your car." If I didn't have what I needed to take care of the customer's needs, then I had to buy the tool myself.

We, the racers, are the customers. We pay to race. We pay to get credentialed, and we pay to enter the facility. Why should we have to buy the tools that CCS needs in order to take care of the customer? CCS needs more customers as well as customers that are able to partake in more races in a given weekend. If the customer is forced to buy the tools that CCS needs to complete the job, then there will be fewer customers, racing fewer races.

My question about Westhold is- This is a leased system. If it isn't working right, is it not Westhold's responsibility to it's customer (CCS) to make them work right or replace them with new units? Any equipment leasing I have ever seen did come with customer support and tech support for the leased equipment. Am I missing something?

The easy answer, it seems to me, is for CCS to go ahead and lease the AMB system, keep fees the same, and handle distribution and retrieval the same way.

[Super Dave]

That is kind of my point though Dave, keep that 5 bucks in the fees and switch units, that is fine. But charging the same entry fees and then charging for the equipment in addition is not cool.

I can only say what it is after renting tracks myself...  Insurance and track rentals are not static.  The reality is that fees will go up at some point.  If CCS has to make a decision to not make it like almost all organizations out there that individuals are responsible for their own transmitters, and even some have them already, the fees will go up.

As for my analogy, I beg to differ, as I had 100 thousand into my tools when I was an ASE Master Tech. I had to buy the tools myself in order to fix the customer's car. I couldn't go to the customer and say "Hey, I need you to buy a 1 7/8 inch wrench so that I can fix your car." If I didn't have what I needed to take care of the customer's needs, then I had to buy the tool myself.

True, but your tools allow you to meet flat rate, or exceed it.  But if you're a big shop and you need an NGS or some other kind of diagnostic equipment or special tool, that's not something even an HD mechanic is going to be able to afford, and that where shop labor rates come from.  After all, as we all know, the mechanic doesn't take in all of the money from the rate the shop has to charge to stay in business...not to mention lights, insurance for liability for mechanic mistakes, water, heat...

We, the racers, are the customers. We pay to race. We pay to get credentialed, and we pay to enter the facility. Why should we have to buy the tools that CCS needs in order to take care of the customer? CCS needs more customers as well as customers that are able to partake in more races in a given weekend. If the customer is forced to buy the tools that CCS needs to complete the job, then there will be fewer customers, racing fewer races.

It's not any different than before.  Entry fees have always been used to rent tracks, pay for insurance, pay for workers, and pay for scoring. 

Over time, racing has continued to get more and more and more and more and more expensive.  It has grown and receeded for various reasons.  It will never be cheap.  It's the easiest way to make a small fortune out of a large one. 

If owning an AMB transmitter were an honest reason for fewer racers, then CRA, AHRMA, WERA, and others should have seen a decline when they mandated the use of them compared to CCS's decision to place the cost of the dbCom thing in the fees.

[Doctor]

Still, even if entry fees had to go up another 10 bucks to do it, it would be much better to use them and handle distribution and retrieval the same than it would be to rent them for the better part of an entry fee for a second race, or to sell them for the price of a set of tires and a can of fuel. I understand that there is an overhead for CCS, however, the real problem being faced right now is grid size, not scoring. Adding an extra expense for the racers of this magnitude is not going to increase grids.

Now Dave, on your last point, that would be a viable comparison, if the racers were having to do that during the worst recession that they have ever seen in their lifetime, however that was indeed not the case, so not really an apples to apples discussion. All of the aforementioned sanctioning bodies are also seeing a decline in grid size.

What I am getting at is that right now, CCS needs to find a way to make more money, essentially, getting more bikes lining up. Converting to a much more expensive timing system is really not a way of doing that. Not saying it would be a bad thing to do, just that right now it is really kind of silly to look at that until the grids get back up to where they were.

Lets focus on getting more guys to come racing instead. Once we get the numbers back up and people are actually eligible for contingency money again with large enough grids, then lets look at the new timing system.

If there are no bucks, then there is no Buck Rogers. (The kids won't get that one) :)

[Gixxerblade]

Was a decision ever made by CCS? A question is on the license application. I would think that it would only be fair to the racers if CCS has come up with a decision, either for or against before a racer commits to spending his money on a 2011 license.

[dylanfan53]

Count on it.  If it doesn't happen take your SO for a romantic evening somewhere.