BHF to a 1 day race sechdule for the rest of the year.

[weggieman]

Sorry but had to respond to this one.

As a racer, if you're not running fresh tires and using race fuel just as you would for a race weekend you're just wasting your time at a track day. Why would you practice with crap tires and pump fuel? It's a different ball game. Do you actually thimk that pros in any sport practice with less than they use for a competitive event? Especially racers?

And, why would you spend that kind of money for no return? If you can run the same times at a track day (which I hope is the reason your at a track day, to practice your racing at race speed) on used rubber and pump gas, why spend all the money for that on a race weekend? Makes no sense.

[alexm]

Sorry but had to respond to this one.

As a racer, if you're not running fresh tires and using race fuel just as you would for a race weekend you're just wasting your time at a track day. Why would you practice with crap tires and pump fuel? It's a different ball game. Do you actually thimk that pros in any sport practice with less than they use for a competitive event? Especially racers?

I thought it was common practice for racers to run practice on used tires. At least that's what's being reported all the time in AMA, WSBK, MotoGP...

Example, Ben Spies: "I like to ride on used tires just cuz if you can go fast with 18, 19 laps you know what you can do at the end of the race."

http://www.cornerspeedphoto.com/blog/2009/09/ben-spies-interview-at-yamaha-champions.html

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

I'm with weggieman (Gordy) & Sabottka on most of this issue.

Plain & Simple Track Days are Track Days & Racing is Racing. None in the same what so ever.

To try to justify why I race to a track day rider is a waste of time most of the time. If you don't have the will and want to better yourself then stay at home on the porch. I don't see motorcycles as a way to get out of the house or a hobby of mine. It's my life.

Most of us "racers" come from the old school of doing it for passion & pride. I wouldn't trade racing for track days ever. I'm not a half ass kind of guy. I want to race, go fast, and figure out how to go faster. My life literally depends on it, I own a performance shop.  Most trackday riders have a very short leash. Their ruler (wives - g/f) usually has a choker on them of which keeps them only doing track days. Their passion is their family and they are not from the true "racer" family. How you can tell? Watch a guys pit. See if he even has his wife / gf helping him out. If your family is not involved in it like you are you most likely won't be around long.

Racing take a lot of hard work and yes money too. Just think of it in other terms like being in a rock band. The local cover band does it for fun but most never make it to the big time because of sacrifices they won't make. Bands change members constantly due to one of them finding a woman at local bar they were playing at and now she whips him. 
The rest of its members are left trying to limp along and find another dedicated player until another member gives up to the easy life.

Doing anything for a long time with many sacrifices is not easy. Its only the strong that survive. So any rider that has a girl that has stayed by their side thoughout the racing I applaud them, you got a keeper.

I have a lot of things to say about this topic. I will need some time to spend tonight to elaborate on those things. I have some good points I believe. I'm 34 yrs old. Have been racing for 30 years and road racing for 16 years now. Own a performance shop, run a race team, am currently leading the Midwest & Great Plains Championships, broke 2 track records this sesaon, finished as high as 7th in AMA Formula Xtreme & Supersport, raced at this years World Supersport Race in Miller, been a control rider, trained road racing skills at my shop, been to prison for trying to fund my racing the wrong way. Trust me I've tried many avenues. I don't claim to be a know it all, just love racing & learning from my mistakes. I've been through much and would like to help in anyway i can.

[HAWK]

Gordy, Jason said much more elaborately what I said earlier. While a racer will need good tires to test at a trackday MOST trackday riders are not racers. Many of them ride stock bikes with plastics (hell a lot of them ride their street bikes with the lights taped), they will run a set of tires for most of a season and have a blast riding in a way that they cannot on the street. This goes back to what I said earlier, there are a lot of trackday riders, probably most,that have no desire to race, then there is that handful of racers that the sport needs to find a way to get from trackdays to the races. This is why I say that the trackdays are not the problem, the biggest problem is the fact that many current racers can't afford to keep racing let alone the younger riders that can't even afford to get started, the economy has made this fact even worse. This is not CCS's fault or anyone elses for that matter, Racing is expensive and that is getting worse every year.

Now it would be nice to see CCS take a page from the other motorsports programs and find more effective ways to limit the prep costs. I realize that will come with a price tag, namely enforcement, but if the sport is to survive at the club level then it has to be done. It's fine for guys like Brian and Jason to campaign $20k to $30k bikes at the top level but there should be several classes where someone can ride a $4k to $5k bike well and have a chance at being competitive. That is what the SS classes were supposed to be but right now the way the rules are written those classes don't work.

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

CCS isn't the only problem. Read all over the motorcycle racing news and you will see that all the series are having low attendence.
I'd be racing AMA like in years past but its only more expensive to do that than in past seasons. The contingencies are non-exsistant.
Plus there is no sponsorship tire deals in AMA now that it is all Dunlop tires. When you add up the cost of AMA it is ridiculous what the expenses are.
I make more in rewards at CCS races than AMA and that isn't much at all either.

Times are tough and people are scaling back. With these hard economic times, CCS does need to change their race format. I'm riding the same bike in nearly every class and can win them all at a track like Blackhawk. My bike is exactly the same for every class.
Maybe less classes with longer races & more payout from the manufactures contingency? Should make for bigger grids in each class. It will make the points system much better for the overall championship since there are less races it won't just be about who has more $ to enter more races.

[R1Racer99]

Maybe less classes with longer races & more payout from the manufactures contingency? Should make for bigger grids in each class. It will make the points system much better for the overall championship since there are less races it won't just be about who has more $ to enter more races.

I like that idea, why have so many classes when almost everyone is using one bike anyway?

[motomaniac]

At least with my idea the track day people can actully say they are going to the races.. LOL!

Anyway, yes everyone will loose extra classes to race. But they could also participate in the track day sessions too.  Kind of like hoe the Unlimited Gp race was the last race of the day and everyone with all kinds of bikes raced it to Win the $200 purse... No contingencys back then either.. Those were the days.. We should look back to that.

[truckstop]

Most trackday riders have a very short leash.

I'm gonna have to object to blaming the wimmenfolk for the Problems With Racing.

I mean I get it, and I get that I'm maybe objecting because I'm an exception to the rule, but I'm pretty sure that racing isn't failing because of a bunch of Yoko's breaking up the band.

(I also, I object to that analogy since in my former life I had a lot of involvement with musicians, and this was very rarely the problem with bands. With musicians, their biggest downfall is their own egos.)

Were racers not married/partnered "back in the heyday"?

I'm not saying that it never happens, because it very clearly does, but I would venture to guess that the biggest problem by far this season as to why *racers* aren't racing is #1 Money. No money, no sponsors, no contingency.

Yes, it does cost less for a racer to do trackdays. Why? Because most of the racers I know who do trackdays are Coaches or CRs who don't pay for entry, and if you're there as a Coach or CR, you're not there to lay down the fastest laps you can, you're there to help other people. (Unless you're out playing around in an A session, but even then I think the fastest laps are typically on race day - please correct me if I'm wrong) I've heard a few racers who coach trackdays end up complaining that it ultimately slows them down because TD's are run at a different (slower) pace.

The others will do a trackday here or there for shakedown or setup or to hang out with friends but the whole purpose and focus is ENTIRELY different from a race. It's not treated the same way. You don't change tires 3 times or use race gas. You use the shagged out tires from the last race weekend.

I also have to object to the idea that trackday riders aren't trying to go faster or improve. I've never met a single person at a trackday who didn't have *some* sort of goal or interest in bettering themselves as a rider.

Top three reasons people give me at track days as to why trackday riders don't race:
1. Too expensive.
2. Not fast enough.
3. Too dangerous.

I think it's unfortunate that people don't realize that there's fun to be had on a decent sized grid in the back with other people running your pace. I'm obviously not going to win a race unless I'm the only one there and very well might be an amateur forever, but it's super fun when there are people around to chase and catch.

I would also venture a guess that for trackday riders, questions of health insurance, and what will be covered weighs heavily as well. It's much easier to excuse an injury in a non-racing "teaching" environment than it is to talk them into covering $100K+ of expenses due to racing. Again, health insurance is 100% the reason why we've been on the track exactly ZERO times this season, for races or trackdays.

Anyway. I hope CCS weathers the storm and makes it through.

Trackdays may be killing racing, but given that for me, and a few other people I know, we wouldn't be racing if it weren't for trackdays, I don't know how much it balances out. Maybe more racers should go to trackdays and offer to mentor new riders and encourage them to race? Blaming trackday riders for killing racing isn't going to endear them to the idea of joining in.

[KBOlsen]

Here, we are for the most part, preachers and choir.  If we want to save the sport, we all need to get the word out, in a positive manner. 

There is NO feeling in the world that equates to those final heartbeats between the "2" board and the green flag.  NOTHING comes close (well, for me anyway).  To have been able to experience that intensity, that rush... doesn't matter if you are a Jason/Brian/DanO or the resident backmarker :) - it's something EVERY racer has the privilege of knowing. 

And you'll never get that feeling at a track day or anywhere else.

I sure hope that we will have a 2011 season with CCS.  If each of us could get just one trackday rider to sign up for Learning Curves and do one race weekend... 

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

Truckstop:

My rant was about a way of life that is needed to excel at anything you might have a passion for, be it racing / band member / olympic swimmer / etc.
Any lifestyle that pushes you to be the best possible at your sport will take some massive sacrifice to do it.
Most people have too many other outside influences to keep you from excelling to your fullest potential such as a wife, kids, an ill family member, job, bills, etc all these equal FEAR.
Basically put I'm saying that trackday riders are just trackday riders. They would like to live the dream but can do it to the fullest due to Fearing that they might lose something else or whatever.

Responsibilities = Fear. I'm not saying that I have no responsibilities. What I have learned is that Fear is what gets you hurt on the race track. What you fear will always come to get you because that is where your concentration is at instead of making it or accomplishing something. There is only one way and that is making it.
Most track day riders have too much to risk in their minds, if they crash & wreck their bikes or hurt themselves. But what they fear is what gets them hurt. If you have 100% support by your side during racing you can go much faster.

Track day riders ride to have fun and I'm sure some track day riders have never had so much fun in their lives doing anything else. Track days are not killing racing. I never said they were. I'm just trying to explain what it takes to be a racer like myself or others.

Everyone looks at life differently. I guess I'm extreme in racing. My life revolves around racing & motorcycles. I have no kids I'm responsible for or a wife. I do have a great girlfriend.

FYI= It cost me more to do a track day that I get in free for. Try taking off of work on a Wednesday & lose money at your business. I make no contingency money for my track ride. I get no quality go fast time with riders in the way. I burn up tires & fuel. I risk crashing into riders that are at a slower level than me. I fear that when I pass a 1000cc track day rider on my 600 on the brakes that he will try to follow my line and take me out.
I understand the risk it takes to ride a bike. I won't ride my bike unless all the bolts are checked every time I take to the track. So give myself some peace of mind I have to bring a bud of who I pay to check my bike over and make sure things are good.
Brian Hall also has that guy, its his dad. He checks his bikes over constantly and that is worth a lot of money he didn't bring up.
To do those things you gotta bring your full race setup of tools & equipment. Generators, tire warmers also.

I laugh when I go out on the track at track days and watch riders never check air pressure, bolts, fuel, oil level, brake pads, etc.
The reason most track day guys fall is due a problem on their bikes. They always blame something or someone else. I'm honestly scared and put myself at risk when I ride trackdays while being on the track with riders who don't check over their bikes.
I see more guys crashing in weird ways at trackdays then races more often.

I go to track days to help riders get faster and I tell you it frustrates me when most of these riders don't have the passion for that sport like I do. I mean come on you gotta check your air pressures!
Ever ask a track day rider what his sag is set at? Typical answer= no. what is that. How do I do that.
It even happens at races but a whole lot less.

The reason the fast racers go fast is because of checks and balances of doing things right. Skipping nothing and leaving nothing to guess. I've been around Blackhawk what over 5000 laps at least but I still write what I'm doing wrong down on a map.

I always repeat this line my dad once told me when I was young. He said you can go just as fast if not faster then your competition. Its all about how bad do you want it. If you lost. I guess you didn't want it bad enough. Time to try harder.

I have many friends that are track day riders who in my eyes will never be good racers even though they want to be. I have other friends who don't want to race but I know would do very well.

Track days are NOT I repeat are NOT killing racing. Its the economy that is putting a Major damper on racing. This economy problem is putting a lot of FEAR in to people that would normally try racing. Most riders or potential racers are already spread thin $ wise and only have more fear if they wreck their bikes or get injured and can't work.  CCS neecs to think outside the box and change their series a bit to keep it alive until the reccession passes if it ever does.

[truckstop]

Thanks for the clarification Jason. I'm in agreement with most of what you're saying.

I agree with this 100%:

Track days are NOT I repeat are NOT killing racing. Its the economy that is putting a Major damper on racing. This economy problem is putting a lot of FEAR in to people that would normally try racing. Most riders or potential racers are already spread thin $ wise and only have more fear if they wreck their bikes or get injured and can't work.  CCS neecs to think outside the box and change their series a bit to keep it alive until the reccession passes if it ever does.

FWIW I was also responding to other stuff in the thread and I wasn't directing my whole post at you. That wasn't very clear.

I think it's awesome that you're giving up time to help at TD's by the way. Enthusiasm for the sport can be contagious, and I believe it's more effective to encourage as you're doing, than to take the attitude of "Us v. Them".

I think you're right about the expense for someone at your level of investment in the sport that it's not cheaper to do TDs. I'm coming from the point of view of a backmarker amateur and a husband who is a mid-pack expert. We aren't earning sponsor money or contingency most of the time anyway, and get paid vacation days, and while we still have to pay for fuel and tires and consumables and it's not *free*, it's certainly less expensive for us than racing, and costs less than the people who attend the TD when you're not paying entry fees.

On the topic of bike prep and knowledge, I haven't been around that long, but have heard a lot of stories about how the Learning Curves classes were WAY more scary 10 years ago. Most people doing it now have track time under their belts and seeing someone out there who is completely lost is a rare occurrence now. So I'm pretty sure there are lots of people who spent their first race season learning about suspension and tire pressures. Nobody comes to the track with instant knowledge whether its trackdays or races. It might take TD riders longer to figure it out though, and understand the frustration after the 100th time you've asked someone if they've checked tire pressure and they say no.

But again, I think we're on the same page, or at least we're reading the same book. Even though my perspective is just a little different being less experienced, and not fast, nor super competitive.

[ChitownNexus]

On a related note on the racing/track day discussion...

This Saturday I am actually free and want to get some riding in with my track only GSXR600.  I can sign up for LCR or Motovid runs a track day as well on Saturday.  This just adds to what I was saying earlier...For $200 or less I get 7-8 session with Motovid or $200 for LCR ride barely 3 sessions.  I realize there is classroom time, but this leads me to believe CCS should partner with a group like Motovid to offer race licenses as well. 

Motovid's site says Brian Hall helps out at these Rider Clinics.  So my point it how much different is LCR in reality?  At these Motovid Rider Clinics, they go over the flags and go more in depth with actual riding technique.  The only thing that separates LCR is classroom sessions on rules and regs of racing and the mock race.

How difficult would it be for CCS to partner with someone like Motovid to offer a more full track licensing experience?  In two sessions with LCR I can't imagine people are going to learn a ton and the 3rd session is the mock race. 

I do believe if through Motovid or other track day organizations a person could somehow obtain a CCS license you would see an increase in racers.  If you combine that with some type of class that is more restrictive or a beginners racer group you could see an increase in entries.

Why not a Sportsman type class where mods allowed were simple like gearing, pipe, Power commanders, stock engine, but stock suspension?   If part of what you want to do is attract track day riders I would say that would be a good suggestion.  Most track day guys, like me, ride stock suspension bikes with basic modifications.  WIth a class like this we wouldn't feel like we have to spend a ton of money on forks, shocks, and engine work.  We may not run an entire series, but a bunch of people could be signing up for random weekends to get their feet wet. 

This is not to say LCR is bad, but I think maybe the actual licensing process could also be revisited. Just some of my random thoughts.