What is a good mm increments to experiement with front end height?

[Speedballer347]

But, personally, I'm struggling with why you have 30mm of rider sag up front, if you're measuring it the same way I would. 

Hi Dave.
06/GSXR1K.
Rider on pegs and seat, then no rider and forks extended to max.

Thermosman front w/ Ohilns valves and springs, just the cheap valving, not cartridges. 925 springs w/ 193lb rider.
Thermosman recommends 140mm of 5 weight in my bike (120mm MAX).  He had 115mm of 5 wt in mine.
with 4 lines (out of 5) showing I was at 30mm of rider sag.  My bike was bottoming to the stops in bumpy corners.

WFO changed the fluid, and reassembled forks so I had 5 more clicks of rebound (had been assembled incorrectly before).  He added 5cc of 5 weight for a grand total of 120mm of oil.
At 4 lines showing and 30mm of rider sag I am 10mm from bottoming.

I am afraid if I run 35mm of rider sag I will be bottoming them again.



Not a 250GP bike, but it was night and day.  I am usually good for about 5 laps in practice before my body starts wearing out.
I rode the whole session w/ the rear jacked up and felt as good on the first lap as the last.  It literally cornered effortlessly compared to it's normal state.  I would have left it but it was slapping and unstable under acc and braking.
I do not understand how adding 15 clicks of hi-speed to the rear made such a difference.
????? 

Ben Probst said my rear felt spongy, way off, like the Ohilns-triple shock needed to be serviced.  He said he would try and help me with my settings at RA.
I did not know that changing your geometry affected your sags.  This sh*t is complicated.

I don't know if making it steer quicker will make me go any faster, but it sure will stop me from wearing out so fast.

What do you think is going on up front?

[Super Dave]

At 4 lines showing and 30mm of rider sag I am 10mm from bottoming.

I am afraid if I run 35mm of rider sag I will be bottoming them again.

Bottoming isn't a problem unless it is actually a problem in bottoming. 

Why not add some go back to 35mm of sag which would nose the bike down and then add some compression so that is slows the action and gives you some feel of what's going on up front?

Not a 250GP bike, but it was night and day.  I am usually good for about 5 laps in practice before my body starts wearing out.
I rode the whole session w/ the rear jacked up and felt as good on the first lap as the last.  It literally cornered effortlessly compared to it's normal state.  I would have left it but it was slapping and unstable under acc and braking.
I do not understand how adding 15 clicks of hi-speed to the rear made such a difference.

I'm unsure of the range of your compression settings, but, yeah, I'm with Ben.  Adding 15 clicks of HS to the rear is ridiculous.  You've got a problem.

I don't know if making it steer quicker will make me go any faster, but it sure will stop me from wearing out so fast.

Road America... yeah, you'll want it to steer faster.  A lot of aero lift that affects geometry.  Gateway?  It will get slammed back and forth a lot more.  Two very different places. 

[Speedballer347]

Bottoming isn't a problem unless it is actually a problem in bottoming. 

???

Why not add some go back to 35mm of sag which would nose the bike down and then add some compression so that is slows the action and gives you some feel of what's going on up front?

I only have 3 clicks of front compression left before it is at max.

I'm unsure of the range of your compression settings, but, yeah, I'm with Ben.  Adding 15 clicks of HS to the rear is ridiculous.  You've got a problem.

Hi-speed comp was set at 40 clicks out (of a possible 45 clicks).
Screwing it in 15 clicks [for a total of 25 clicks out (Thermosman recommends 15 clicks out to start)] made it a different bike. Very little effort to turn, switchback, or stay leaned.  Felt like I could let go of the handlebars at mid corner and it would continue to lean.  Did not oversteer, felt perfect.  Rear was soaking up (responding to) bumps better too.
But was moderately unstable.
Normally I am using all of my legs and arms to change direction, and having to countersteer the bike while leaned over.


My bike is jacked    It's like solving a rubic's cube...

[Super Dave]

???

Use the stroke of the suspension when you can.  It can bottom and not kill you.  But, you could still have an issue with the whole geometry being crap:  too much weight on the front period.

I only have 3 clicks of front compression left before it is at max.

Ok.  Could change the oil to something heavier, but you still could have a geometry issue. 

Hi-speed comp was set at 40 clicks out (of a possible 45 clicks).
Screwing it in 15 clicks [for a total of 25 clicks out (Thermosman recommends 15 clicks out to start)] made it a different bike. Very little effort to turn, switchback, or stay leaned.  Felt like I could let go of the handlebars at mid corner and it would continue to lean.  Did not oversteer, felt perfect.  Rear was soaking up (responding to) bumps better too.
But was unstable.

Yeah, well, you're a long way off there to start.  Additionally, you said high speed compression.  High speed is usually for really harsh, square edged bumps.  What's the low speed compression at?

My bike is jacked 

Yeah, I agree, but I think you've had a hard time taking the time to focus on it.  It's a life long struggle to understand it all.

[Speedballer347]

Use the stroke of the suspension when you can.  It can bottom and not kill you.  But, you could still have an issue with the whole geometry being crap:  too much weight on the front period.

I forgot to mention that not only did we increase the 5wt oil 5mm, we also added 3 clicks of compression to keep it from bottoming.  And I still only have 10mm from bottoming now.

With the original Tman settup (115mm of 5 wt) and 6 clicks out of compression (30mm of rider sag) it was bottoming and locking down...I was locking at the bottom and chattering/skipping across the bumps at Putnam T2 and T9, and GIR T8.

Also, rebound issue.
After first recieving my fork rebuild by Tman I had only 13 clicks of rebound.  I was supposed to have 18, which got taken care of when WFO rebuilt them.
Even after fixing the rebound clicks and fresh 5 wt, I am still having to run my rebound wide open....and it is on the edge of still having too much rebound.
I have no doubt my shim stack and valving was incorrect rebuilt originally.

Could change the oil to something heavier, but you still could have a geometry issue.

If I go any heavier it will increase my rebound to unusable.

Here is what doesn't make any mechanical sense.
1-I am having to run my rebound wide open to keep the forks from locking at the bottom over bumps.....extending too slowly.
2-I am having to run my compression almost maxed out (3 clicks shy) and 120mm of 5 wt (140mm recommended 5wt) to keep from bottoming
Thats ying and yang, nowhere near middle ground settings.
3-I am running 30mm sag and it is close to bottoming out....and I will be out of preload adjustment if I back the preload off to 35mm.....that doesn't seem right.
4-The springs appear to be too heavy since I only have 1 line of preload left at 30mm of sag....yet the bike wants to bottom.
5-adding 20mm of oil over recomended is what it took to keep it from bottoming (including almost all of my compression and preload adjustment...and low sag #)

I cannot even describe in words how unhappy I am with my fork re-valving/performance.

Yeah, well, you're a long way off there to start. 

When I got the shock, the guy said the setting were all close.  I didn't know what hi-speed comp was, nor did the guy that set my sags....so we left it as it came....40 clicks out.
When I was talking to Tman a couple months ago, is when I asked for the starting number (15 out) for the hi speed comp.  Going in 15 (total 25 out) made the rear soak up GIR T8 noticably better, and it steered MUCH better.  I know I should be closer to 15 than 25 clicks out on the hi-speed.
My low speed is at 11 out.

I go along w/ Ben on the rebuild....I am sure there is nothing wrong w/ the rear shock that fresh oil and correct adjustments wouldn't fix.  But the forks are so....?...F'd I thik they are causing most all of my problems 

If I had the money I would just drive the bike down to GMD ATL and get the forks valved/sprung right once and for all and get the shock serviced/adjusted....(I should have done that from the very beginning) but I don't have the money, so I keep trying to bandaid the problem 

[Super Dave]

With the original Tman settup (115mm of 5 wt) and 6 clicks out of compression (30mm of rider sag) it was bottoming and locking down...I was locking at the bottom and chattering/skipping across the bumps at Putnam T2 and T9, and GIR T8.

Locked up was something mechanical, right?  Sounds like that rebound issue...

And did you ever ask where to run your shock and fork lengths for your tires?

...and it is on the edge of still having too much rebound.

Why do you say that?

Here is what doesn't make any mechanical sense.
1-I am having to run my rebound wide open to keep the forks from locking at the bottom over bumps.
2-I am having to run my compression almost maxed out (3 clicks shy) and 120mm of 5 wt (140mm recommended 5wt) to keep from bottoming.
Thats ying and yang, nowhere near middle ground settings.

Middle ground isn't necessarily a goal.  I know that I've had plenty of bikes running about five clicks out on compression or something to that kind of number.  Use what you gotta use there unless one can come up with actual mechanical issues.

3-I am running 30mm sag and it is close to bottoming out.

Why the .925 yet? 

4-The springs appear to be too heavy since I only have 1 line of preload left at 30mm of sag....yet the bike wants to bottom.

If you had 40mm of sag with the preload all the way out, you'd have recognition of a spring that was too heavy.  You've got an indication that it is too light.

5-adding 20mm of oil over recomended is what it took to keep it from bottoming (including almost all of my compression and preload adjustment...and low sag #)[/b]

Bandaid for spring issue.  Gotta start with springs, and geometry, first. 

When I got the shock, the guy said the setting were all close.  I didn't know what hi-speed comp was, nor did the guy that set my sags....so we left it as it came....40 clicks out.

Yeah, been there.  Long time ago, but you've got to come armed.  Probably worth looking into the spring rate on the rear shock too.  Depending upon what route Ohlins shocks come from, they can come set up based on running two up.  Really. 

When I was talking to Tman a couple months ago, is when I asked for the starting number (15 out) for the hi speed comp.  Going in 15 (total 25 out) made the rear soak up GIR T8 noticably better, and it steered MUCH better.  I know I should be closer to 15 than 25 clicks out on the hi-speed.
My low speed is at 11 out.

Low speed sounds probably close.

I go along w/ Ben on the rebuild....I am sure there is nothing wrong w/ the rear shock that fresh oil and correct adjustments wouldn't fix.  But the forks are so....?...F'd I thik they are causing most all of my problems 

Start at the basics. 

Springs, geometry.

According to just plodding on this page assuming you're 195 without gear and that your bike is 410, front springs should be 1.0's and the rear should be 9.1ish...so, 9.0?  Not sure what that is in #'s.  Got a calculator someplace.
http://old.racetech.com/evalving/SpringRateCalculation/dirtspring.asp?brand=Suzuki&yr=05-06&ml=GSX-R1000&formuse=form1&SpringType=Fork&bikeid=444

If there rear is over sprung along with the front being under sprung, it's gonna ride like ass.  Start with the basics.

[Speedballer347]

Dave and Timmay, thank you for all of the advice and explanations.  Mucho appreciated!!!
Sorry I am such a winer, just get frustrated that the forks weren't done correctly from the start.  I guess I'll order heavier springs and see what happens.  Ben is going to do my adjustements (reb/comp) so that should help a lot too.
Thanks again 

[tstruyk]

I dunno if the springs will work but I am going to be putting .95s in my SV... I've got 1.0's in there now... if they work I would be interested in your .925's just in case the .95's are still too heavy... you could have my 1.0's...

the springs need to fit stock SV forks with AK20's...

[Speedballer347]

I dunno if the springs will work but I am going to be putting .95s in my SV... I've got 1.0's in there now... if they work I would be interested in your .925's just in case the .95's are still too heavy... you could have my 1.0's...

the springs need to fit stock SV forks with AK20's...

Thanks Tim!
I don't think they will fit.

I just talked to Tman.
He said my forks are within spec on the 10mm from bottom. And said the 30mm rider sag is OK for the 1K.
He said my rear spring is way to soft, so I am sending it for rebuild and respring tommorrow.
Hope this helps towards getting my bike squared away.

Thanks guys!

[Super Dave]

I just talked to Tman.
He said my forks are within spec on the 10mm from bottom. And said the 30mm rider sag is OK for the 1K.
He said my rear spring is way to soft, so I am sending it for rebuild and respring tommorrow.
Hope this helps towards getting my bike squared away.

Good! 

[Speedballer347]

After talking w/  a service-tech at Ohlins USA, that's where my forks are headed.

He said I have an 80lb rear spring, when I should have a 95lb spring, that's 3 sizes off.
Said my rebound stack sounds off, and I should be on .975-1.0 fork springs.  That's 2-3 sizes off.
Dude spent a lot of time with me on the phone.
I don't know how the original dealer could have gotten the springs so far off for my weight  and screwed up the valving.

I'm skipping the middleman and sending it directly to Ohlins.  Said he wouldn't charge me to do the forks, and would swap rear springs for free.  And can get it back to me i time for RA