Which bike to race? 848 or 08 CBR1000

[topgearamerica]

Ok I have a problem that I will fully admit most people wouldn't mind having. I have been doing track days for probably 3 years, I've been involved with club racing as a volunteer and I know what most everything is around the paddock... I have 2 bikes a 2008 Ducati 848 and a 2008 CBR1000rr that I trackday and they see very very limited street duty les than 500 miles a year total on the street and those are 99% to lazy to park in the back of the lot so I take the bike kinda things I.E. these are track bikes. They currently sit with bone stock motor internals Cartridge kits, rear shocks, bodywork, rear sets, clip ons thorttles (all the nessesary track gear), exhaust, filter, tunes... I do have the new M4 brembo monoblock front calipers and galfer superbike rotors, slippers, Brembo M/C on both... I am a bigger guy (6'4" 235 lbs) and I do feel more comfortable on the CBR as far as size and style, and I find that I feel more competitive on the CBR. However in CCS racing what would be a wiser choice to run? this is obviously a hobby and I would like to limit my operating expenses in exchange for being able to run on a consistant bases meaning I'd rather have the CBR stay superbike legal and only run UL superbike and the as I call em mini endurance, or put the stock brakes on the 848 and run the pirelli cup and maybe MW SS and be able to go every weekend rather than 8 races a weekend and not be able to go to the next even (I run a cash only budget)... I'm wondering where a few more race experienced eyes would say to go... I know most say smaller is better and I understand why. I love my CBR and would love to run slicks and superbike but the field is nowhere as deep as the MW and having a Ducati in a heard of I-4 would be neat to me. I compared laps times I've seen from races to what I've been able to run on a pretty regular bases at Road America and on the Ducati I would be a solid upper mid-pack runner, and the CBR in superbike trim with DOTs I was running a little over second back of Novice UL SS race winners fastest lap at RA last year... I don't want to be a back marker and I think that wont be the case but to me personally I would like to run the CBR but if I will be miserable as it is my first race experience I wouldn't hate running the 848 at all but my wallet might dis-like the valve adjustment costs... Any pointers???

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Don't take this personal, but.....

In my opinion that's the big problem with people running track days for too long before going racing, many develop a feeling of inadequacy that their never good enough to go race and are so concerned about how well they will finish in their 1st ever races as an Amateur - WHO FRIKKEN CARES - just go RACE and see how it works out!


At race pace a person of your weight is going to eat up tires faster than the lighter guys (I'm the same weight as you), add the power of the 1000 and your finances are going to be going toward buying tires. The Unlimited class does typically have less entries than the Middleweight classes, but the racing is different as well. A new racer on a 1000 is distracted by the excess power and focused on trying not to crash the thing from too much power, on the 848 you can focus more on racing and less on tire spin. The Middleweight classes can be huge, but look at it this way, you'll be able to run more races on the 848 over the course of the season with the same money just from the cost savings on tires.

I highly suggest to ANY new racer to get intentionally gridded at the back of the grid for all their races at their 1st event, that way you can work your way up through the pack and you won't get hog-piled by the pack on the 1st lap. Doing that allows you to pass increasingly faster racers as you move up thru the field, I did that my entire 1st season and could usually work my way quite a ways up thru the field by the end of the races - excellent passing experience that you'll be glad you had later in your racing career. At the other extreme, starting at the front of the grid means your most likely going to be going backwards thru the pack and having alot of racers passing you - and probably alot closer passes than your use to at track days. Also make sure and wear a shirt over your leathers at your 1st race event to let the other racers know your a new racer, that way they'll give you extra room (this is also highly appreciated by the other racers).

Welcome to the addiction and make sure and have FUN! 

[roadracer162]

There are so many issues here that affect the decision. Mike has addressed many of them and I mostly agree so I won't go back over them. The decision of which to race is certainly a personal one and only you can make that determination. We can only give you suggestions.

I agree with Mike on the thought about racing and track days. I am of the opinion that a race day is safer than a track day but that is my personal experience. Lap times during a track day is not the same as a race although it can be helpful. Your decision on why you are racing is more prevalent to your lap times and your finishing results rather than your actual skill. Just because you have lap times that are midpack doesn't mean you won't be racing for last. At least for me, the decision to race puts me in a position to improve my skills by challenging myself. Which bike does that for you?

As far as tire wear I beleive that tires wear faster on the faster guys and slower for the slower guys. With this in mind a fast rider on a lightweight bike will wear tires faster than a slower guy on a middleweight bike.

One of my main thoughts about rider, racing and the bikes of choice is that an Unlimited bike is best for the expert riders. I believe in a tiered system when it comes to riding and believe a new rider should start on a lightweight bike. My personal experience is riding my Ultralight legal Ducati 800 and the lap times I turn as compared to many Amateur riders on Heavyweight and Unlimited bikes going much slower. I also believe that if a rider can ride an Unlimited bike well then he isn't an Amateur and should be in the Experts ranks.

I do understand your concern of weight but I have seen many guys at your weight and more racing on Lightweight and even Ultralight bikes. Ramon Vazquez on a Ultralight Ducati and a Lightweight Bimota in the Florida region is an example, along with Bob Wissinger on an SV650, or Chris Sullivan on a Ducati DS.

Mark

[tstruyk]

Sholulda seen ben probst last weekend on his SV... FLYIN!!  he's probably all of 260... Learn alot about race craft

[skiandclimb]

Sholulda seen ben probst last weekend on his SV... FLYIN!!  he's probably all of 260... Learn alot about race craft

+1.  Ben is bigger than me (and I am not small!) yet he goes out there and kicks arse on a regular basis.  I'm not syaing he doesn't look a bit goofy, rolling to pit out at 6ft4...on an SV650....but damn- he can really haul ass. 

Race the Duc. You will have more fun, IMHO. You won't tear up rubber as fast, and will be able to dice it up more so than on an UL bike. Besides, the valves on the newer Ducs have way better longevity than the older desmoquattros.  I also think that racing a twin will develop you into a better racer in the long run.  They're quirkier than I-4's and make you focus on developing skills vs. powering through the course.

[Jason748]

I was wondering why you posted this here and not on the MNSBR board...I though I recoginized that screen that screen name... but then I remembered, you can't run the a 1000 as a Novice in CRA ,,,    but you can in CCS.   So if you want to run both CRA & CCS races, you don't have much of a choice.

[topgearamerica]

I love riding both bikes. The Ducati and it would be something a little different than most, I do feel that MW is so elbow to elbow its like preforming surgery, with bikes so close in terms of capabilities that its pushing to make every corner perfect and constant 120% focus and its an extremely rider focus class, thats a plus that winning MW there are a lot of guys you beat out to take that win. In Unlimited especially in Superbike the bike takes a little more role with SS bikes and even bump up HW that there can be a split between the levels of bikes. I guess when I ride the Ducati its all stop watches and making each lap perfect and keeping it in line, when I ride the CBR I can come in and know that one was a good one because I know from the seat of the leathers when I got a lot out of it kinda thing. I like feeling the sliding around, and those more common o shit moments of the CBR cause when your on point on it it is a great feeling. I may have answered my own question with that tho. The Ducati would put me in a tight field pushing hard to the front (AKA the point of racing isn't it) the CBR tho I've never raced it feels sort of like it is more fun on the track days, because I can push in the front of the group or lag back and have my space to do my own thing where in a race its not like that. My goal money wise is a set of tires a weekend if its slicks for the UN SB and practices, or DOTs and do MW SS or Pirelli cup or whatever, I'm not going for overall points just to have fun, push myself and the equpiment and maybe show all the little fellas that big guys can be fast to and not just on a sled going down hill. The one I don't pick is hitting the market and as much as I love my Honda selling the Ducati feels like a crime and I think the Late Model is gonna join it cause I'll take my bike racing over car racing anyday and once you miss a couple weekends a year there really isn't a point anymore. Jason 748 your post was really confusing to me, I have no idea what your talking about and as far as CRA, I refuse to turn a lap there until a couple certain people stop being involved. When I hung with that crowd I left for the same reason I quit Volunteer firefighting. There is a 50-50 split of newish people and those who have been there forever and the old timers do nothing but remember the "good ole days" and make it hell for the new people, no thanks. Thanks for the input peoples.

[Jason748]

Jason 748 your post was really confusing to me, I have no idea what your talking about and as far as CRA, I refuse to turn a lap there until a couple certain people stop being involved. When I hung with that crowd I left for the same reason I quit Volunteer firefighting. There is a 50-50 split of newish people and those who have been there forever and the old timers do nothing but remember the "good ole days" and make it hell for the new people, no thanks. Thanks for the input peoples.

IDK... really wasn't that confusing.  You are the same "topgearamerica" from the MNSBR BBS are you not?

"If" you were to race with the CRA - as a Novice you CANNOT race a 1000cc bike per the rule book.  This would make your decision easy.  But since you're not - it's a moot point, and you have to decide for yourself which you would rather race.
If you run the CBR, your only choices of class you "could" run would be UNL SS, UNL SB,  UNL GP & GTO
If you run the Duc, their are many more classes you "could" run with your 848 especially if you put teh stock calipers back on.  no one says you can't race up a class or two to HW & UNL if you don't want to run the MW classes...

In regards, the "old guys / new guys" mix.  As someone who has & currently does race with multiple organizations, including both the CRA & CCS,  You're going to get that no matter where you go - CCS has it too.  Both clubs have their good points and bad points, good people and bad people.  My suggestion is if you want to race - go race,  You don't like or get along with some people, just stay clear of them and don't make it an issue.  But that said, I've never really seen any one, especially the "old guys" in either the CCS or CRA put any "new guys" through "hell", unless they were acting like a pompas jackass (to be clear, don't read into that - I'm NOT calling YOU a pompas jackass) and truly deserved it, in fact they've always been more than welcoming and very helpful from what I've seen and experienced...

*** EDIT ***  - After reading the posts you erased over on the "cheap racing" thread on MNSBR, based on those you are acting like a pompas jackass!  and deserving of what you get! 

[twilkinson3]

This is just my meager 2 cents, but there is something seriously oxymoron like with the title Amateur Unlimited.....I think you'd have more fun on the 848 as well, I stepped down to Lightweight (found a prep'd sv to race...) from the cbr600rr I had for track days - definitely the right way to go - not nearly so much about the bike I had to worry about and could focus more on the corners and passing, etc etc.  Believe me track days are one thing and racing is a whole different ball game, I did track days for years before going racing - worry less about the place you finish and set reasonable, fun rookie year goals (mine was to at least catch 1 person per race....) and you'll enjoy the experience more (imho)

[topgearamerica]

The confusing bit its that never did I mention CRA... The people I refer to pulled some shady crap and I'd rather not be around them and their positions in CRA would make that impossible so as I said I'll never run CRA until those people are gone.My CBR would be Superbike legal only... I'm not going to put the stock brakes on (I sold the front calipers and the stock rear system) and I'd only run that with slicks... The Ducati I have the Calipers still and the stock rotors so making it ss legal again in not big deal to me and I've only run the with Pirelli DOTs. Again for me its not about doing 10 races a weekend, I would run maybe 1-3 races or a weekend or 1 set of tires. I don't want my favorite hobby to get hampered by spending to much money and it becomes like running late models where I don't have fun anymore cause it costs to much for the amount of fun I have.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Again for me its not about doing 10 races a weekend, I would run maybe 1-3 races or a weekend or 1 set of tires. I don't want my favorite hobby to get hampered by spending to much money and it becomes like running late models where I don't have fun anymore cause it costs to much for the amount of fun I have.

For anyone looking to benefit from racing (skill-wise) I think racing a minimum of 4-6 races per event is a great way to do it. I also think spreading out those races over 2 or 3 days (in a row) is more beneficial than doing all of them on 1 day - it's amazing how a good nights sleep after a day of racing will make your next days racing so much better. An example of a race event could go like this: do the practice day on Friday, on Saturday do the morning practices then a GT and Sprint race, and on Sunday do the morning practice(s) then 2-4 Sprint races. Plenty of racing, but still allowing time to enjoy the event and socialize with the other racers as well. 

[R1Racer99]

I love riding both bikes. The Ducati and it would be something a little different than most, I do feel that MW is so elbow to elbow its like preforming surgery, with bikes so close in terms of capabilities that its pushing to make every corner perfect and constant 120% focus and its an extremely rider focus class, thats a plus that winning MW there are a lot of guys you beat out to take that win.

What I can't figure out is that you claimed to be an expert racer on MNSBR who was only going to run ASRA because measly club racers just get in your way. It's the internet, this type of thing will follow you around. I hope you make it to Blackhawk this year, I can't wait to see the ass-kicking you give everyone, good luck with it when you weight 60 lbs. more than your competition. Jackass.

For those who might see this guy around, read this idiotic post from another forum. He almost sounds like he knows enough to figure out what bike to race.

TopGearAmerica, on 19 April 2010 - 11:42 PM, said:

so your all gonna start bending the rules and spending tons of money on your mini bikes to? Why don't you race SV's again now??? Cause you can do that without wasting time talking about your new class at Board meetings then.

The "making racing affordable" argument is ridiculous. Its racing, not everyone can do it, that's part of the point, and your still gonna spend every dime you can going faster. If my neighbor started racing I'd move or quit... Same ass that can't cut his grass more than once a year but still buys chrome 30 inch 100 spokes for his daughters 89 corolla... rub all u want you can't polish a turd and if 1 oil down ruins my weekend I'm officially boycotting. I know I'm being an asswhole and stuck in my way but WTF its a forum and if I hear people bitching about things being to expensive or asking for there old POS to get re-classed so can race there 96 CBR F3 cause it can't hang in MW. Every year its something else and soon it gonna be pre-2004 600cc bikes that would otherwise be allowed to race in Middleweight will be allowed to run in Lightweight Superbike, and then SV guys will bitch and it will b a slippery slope on to more and more stuff... This isn't World Super bike where 1000cc twins can't hang anymore so fuck it will just make em bigger until they make them legal and then 4 years later 1000cc twins are racing in Supersport for goodness sake. If you can't afford to race, buy some beer and drink the urge off or go screw around at pro cart on a pit bike, that's more fun sometimes than when I sit on my ass all day and wait for them to grid 125, UL, and Vintage because people don't know when to say hey my shit is old and busted and either get something better or piss off (Mostly a CCS reference Kim does a great job)

America is the land of opportunity not you have the right to do 100% whatever you want and if you can't we'll just change the fucking rules for you so you can. I use to be able to talk about motorcycle racing like it was something different than golf that it was special and cool, but I was telling my co-worker about the Festival of speed coming in June and he finds clips from 2008 where a POS 2003 GSX-R600 fork tube snaps, dude goes down, oil everywhere, and they red flag the rest of my race after 2 laps cause clean up took so long... I drive 6 hours for 10 race laps on a double header weekend and $500 out of my pocket...

Take pride in your stuff, but vintage guys, 2-stroke guys (it hurts cause I love ya but its not 1994 anymore), anybody who says they want to make a new "affordable class" of racing... make your own league or association and stop taking track time away from people who put down some legit cash on this stuff only to have it muffed up by someone else... Or get everyone in the country racing 250s to e-mail Kawasaki and tell them to stroke the motor to 650cc to race in lightweight... O wait they did... I legit was getting pissed at UL (which isn't right cause you guys are doing it the right way) cause CCS last year we ran practically in the dark when a oil down caused a delay and lets face it it takes longer for you guys to come around... If you want to talk making racing affordable how about stop ruining good things by watering them down so much that it seam like my only option is ASRA races and driving halfway across the country for half the track time cause it seams like that is becoming the only organization that takes pride in not watering down the product and letting people take there shit serious.