Suggestion for new classes

[Farmboy]

I thought I just illustrated that the classes already exist.

Hey, how about this for an idea? PI2, as in "price index"? That way, riders who spend a disproportionate amount on their bikes will have their results adjusted downward to level the playing field for those riders who have to race on hamster-powered machines!

Of course, now we have to define "disproportionate", not to mention at which point what number of hamsters negate  the financial advantages of the non-hamster set, and now, with all these hamsters, is there a disproportionate amount of money being spent on hamster chow??? And, inevitably, there will be hamster-doping debacles...

[CCS]

Here is a breakdown of the first ½ of the 2009 season win percentage by brand to help you with this one. Remember Ultralight SuperBike and Lightweight SuperSport are what CCS considers "entry-level" classes. The "inexpensive" SV still wins the lions share of those classes.

Y'all just continue arguing amongst yourselves...

ThunderBike   Win Percentage
BMW   3.70%
Buell   40.74%
Duc   29.63%
Kaw   3.70%
Suz   22.22%

SuperSport   Win Percentage
Bimota   3.30%
BMW   3.30%
Buell   13.40%
DUC   20.00%
MZ   3.30%
Suz   56.66%
   
SuperBike   Win Percentage
Bimota   6.67%
Buell   6.67%
DUC   23.33%
Hon   16.67%
Suz   46.67%

Grand Prix   Win Percentage
Aprilia   3.45%
Bimota   3.45%
BMW   3.45%
Buell   10.34%
DUC   17.24%
Hon   24.14%
Suz   31.03%
Yam   6.90%


Ultralight   Win Percentage
Bimota   3.70%
Duc   18.52%
Hon   3.70%
Suz   74.07%
Yam   3.70%

[Super Dave]

Well, how can one police a class to mandate a $1500 to $2500 motorcycle?  Let alone a $5000 one. 

Age doesn't necessarily mean that it will be inexpensive, but it is possible.  Buy an old H1 or a CB750 and race with AHRMA, then watch as the costs build.


Most of current club racing operates around a few premises of initiating new riders.  One of them is that they start their addiction on their current bike.  Another is that some will acquire wisdom and start racing on a slower, less costly machine.  Neither avenue means that the end bike is inexpensive, as we should all recognize as racers.  At some point, it is reasonable to consider, minimally, springs, brakelines, maybe a shock, certainly a catchpan in addition to full bodywork, and the list goes on and on through aluminum spacers, cryogenically treated rotors, ceramic bearings, impregnated metals, surface topography finishes, Ti, etc. 

Any $500 bike can still be made expensive with those "little touches".  It just doesn't follow that an old bike would be inexpensive.  (Let me use my H1 as an example that started with a set of free Denco cylinder heads and a lot of four bikes for $600.)

Often, the question for a non racer is what would it take for them to want to compete?  And that is the barrier:  they don't necessarily want to compete.  There is certainly a very different mind set in levels of competition within the competition community, let alone comparing a person that enjoys the freedom and sterility of the traffic flow during a track day. 

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Dave, I'm not stepping into the Lightweight debate.  I have no stake in that argument.  From what I can see, everyone in that fight, from CCS rulemakers to the riders of various makes of machine, are all justified and 100% correct from where they are standing.  Too many agendas and only one set of rules.

My 10 proposal was not intended to replace or solve the problems of any given class.  The idea was to create new classes, starting as an extra wave in existing races and competing amongst themselves.  Old, inexpensive machines that a beginner can redily find and afford would make up these classes.  The idea was to provide entry level, cost effective racing and boost attendance.  It sure wouldn't hurt that some of these entry level guys would probably step up to modern machines in a season or two.

Arguing that Ed Key could build a 99 SV and dominate the L10 class is a moot point.  Since the races run simultaniously, he'd have to give up all the classes he runs now to run those four L10 races.  Ed is all about competition at the highest level.  Why would he want to go kick entry level butt instead?  Since this class is focused on entry level racers, you could concievably make it amateur only, though there are probably some salty experts out there who would jump right in if the class existed.

Let's all remember back to when we were amateurs.  Did we know how or where to get the good stuff?  Who built your suspension and engine when you were an amateur?  Most of us did the work ourselves.  It takes a few years of competition for a new racer to figure out what needs looking after, what he can do himself and who he should pay to do the work he can't handle.  A first time racer, 10 class or no, is not going to show up with a machine prepared to Ed Key standards unless he bought it from Ed Key.  Even then, this racer wouldn't be experienced enough to set that bike up and maintain it. And as Farmboy has pointed out, if he couldn't ride it, the bike wouldn't make him a winner.

If the unthinkable happened and a new racer (or an older one) showed up with a 1999 ex-factory AMA Superbike championship winning machine and a factory mechanic to maintain it, well, what can you do?  Of course, if you made the 10 class follow SS rules instead of SB, it would prevent that issue and the only guys who'd hate that would be the owners of heavily modified older Lightweight machines with displacement increases and alternative suspension and brake setups.  Most 600 and larger machines retain their original displacement, brakes and suspension components when they go Superbike, concentrating on stuff like cams, compression and headwork.  Making an old 600 or 1K Superbike 10 legal if the class ran SS rules would be as simple as finding another engine.  The LWSB guys change everything but the VIN number...

[Farmboy]

Here is a breakdown of the first ½ of the 2009 season win percentage by brand to help you with this one. Remember Ultralight SuperBike and Lightweight SuperSport are what CCS considers "entry-level" classes. The "inexpensive" SV still wins the lions share of those classes.

Y'all just continue arguing amongst yourselves...

ThunderBike   Win Percentage
BMW   3.70%
Buell   40.74%
Duc   29.63%
Kaw   3.70%
Suz   22.22%

SuperSport   Win Percentage
Bimota   3.30%
BMW   3.30%
Buell   13.40%
DUC   20.00%
MZ   3.30%
Suz   56.66%
   
SuperBike   Win Percentage
Bimota   6.67%
Buell   6.67%
DUC   23.33%
Hon   16.67%
Suz   46.67%

Grand Prix   Win Percentage
Aprilia   3.45%
Bimota   3.45%
BMW   3.45%
Buell   10.34%
DUC   17.24%
Hon   24.14%
Suz   31.03%
Yam   6.90%


Ultralight   Win Percentage
Bimota   3.70%
Duc   18.52%
Hon   3.70%
Suz   74.07%
Yam   3.70%

Thank you, Kevin, very informative, but I'm now very psyched about a hamster-powered spec class. I think THIS idea has legs - lots of little furry ones!!

Think about it:

-It's a "Green" series, which I understand will be the next great innovation in our sport. No petroleum products and  very little noise (except for all the panting). Oops, I guess there is the issue of hamster waste, but wait! Fertilizer! That's it! Now, racers can defray their costs by going into the organic fertilizer business! Oh wait, there's also the issue of emissions, um, that is, hamster farts. We'll have to do some environmental impact studies to determine the ecological impact and whether it's offset by the new, revolutionized fertilizer market..

-It will also revolutionize the hamster pet industry. Of course, we can't run those guys for too long. I propose a new hamster powerplant every time we change the tires as a good basic guideline. This will be fair to the rodents while providing the marketplace with an abundant supply of heart-healthy, "race-tested" (Trademark rights!! Ka-Ching!!) hamsters, thereby helping to regulate the currently volatile, and often abused, hamster marketplace.

-REAL money can be made in the performance-enhancing drug market. That's right, I'm going to cynically propose that we don't try to hide our dirty little hamster-doping secrets, rather, we embrace and encourage the practice so that we can subsidize HUGE purses in the series, thereby encouraging GARGANTUAN grids! If we do this right, we can build this thing into the direct feeder series for MotoGP!!

-Last but not least, chicks dig hamsters, and they dig racers, so there is an obvious synergy to be realized here. Now, we're all getting laid, too! (Sorry to all you female racers out there. This doesn't benefit you, as we all know what kind of men love hamsters. Again, sincerest apologies, but I'm sure that you'll see the other benfits of the proposed series, and lend your full support.)

I'm waiting by my phone so we can discuss this further. I'd encourage we move quickly on this before someone steals it..

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

At this point, I'm sorry I even gave the entry level issue any thought, much less made my idea public.

Oh, hey.  Here's another really bad idea.  Take older, supersport legal machines, offer them a few extra little mods that an aging racebike would need to keep running but nothing crazy and give them their own class.  Being outdated, these machines will be inexpensive to buy and will provide an entry level alternative.  Wait, SCCA calls that Improved Touring and it's what happens to a car which is no longer new enough for Showroom Stock.  Hey, the idea of giving outdated, inexpensive machines a place to play is nothing new.  It happens everywhere else.  If you guys don't like it, that's cool.  Either way, I can't really feel stupid for having suggested it.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Farmboy, you seem to know quite a lot about hamsters...

[Farmboy]

Farmboy, you seem to know quite a lot about hamsters...

What can I say, I'm an idea man.

Seriously, lighten up. You know you were laughing your ass off..

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

And you know equally well that I couldn't possibly resist that hamster comment!

[Super Dave]

My L10 proposal was not intended to replace or solve the problems of any given class.  The idea was to create new classes, starting as an extra wave in existing races and competing amongst themselves.  Old, inexpensive machines that a beginner can redily find and afford would make up these classes.  The idea was to provide entry level, cost effective racing and boost attendance.  It sure wouldn't hurt that some of these entry level guys would probably step up to modern machines in a season or two.

Ah, ok, so, your idea is to segregate them too? 

In a market situation like today, which seems familiar to what we saw in 1989 and 1990, further fragmenting a class could have further effects in reducing participation in a finite community.  I had though that these L10 machines would be within the race, just scored separately.  So, a rider on a 1999 R6 could finish fifth in MWSS overall and first in L10MWSS. 

Could hurt contingency opportunities in that way with segregation.

Let's all remember back to when we were amateurs.  Did we know how or where to get the good stuff?  Who built your suspension and engine when you were an amateur?  Most of us did the work ourselves.  It takes a few years of competition for a new racer to figure out what needs looking after, what he can do himself and who he should pay to do the work he can't handle.  A first time racer, 10 class or no, is not going to show up with a machine prepared to Ed Key standards unless he bought it from Ed Key.  Even then, this racer wouldn't be experienced enough to set that bike up and maintain it.

Ed Key's standards are Ed's.  That's simple.  And mine are mine.  I have different abilities and financial constraints.  Going further with that, there are amateurs anymore that have paid to have very substantial builds in their engines and suspensions. 

Each rider has standards that they would meet, and I guess I have a hard time recognizing where having a special class is going to gain a substantial let a lone tiny number of entries.  Bikes older than ten years are not barred from competition as it is currently.  There are even AHRMA racers in the area that choose not to race at CCS events.  Similarly, there are track day riders that have ten year old bikes that they could race but choose not to. 

In the current state, older bikes are already becoming Thunderbike legal.  Is it unreasonable for a new racer to consider a nice $1200 F2 for that class?  Finally, are there requests at CCS for this? 

I'll restate again that I sort of like the L10 idea, if it was within the current class structures, just a second set of results.  Wouldn't require additional down time for more grid rows or additional waves. 

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Another comment on the Improved Touring class in SCCA.  The well financed guys sell their outdated Showroom Stock cars and buy new ones.  The Showroom Stock guys who've raced themselves broke keep their old cars and move to Improved Touring.  New racers on a budget buy these depreciated Showroom Stock racers and go Improved Touring because they can't afford to buy and prep a brand new car.  So some current racers who would have left the sport hang around and new budget racers join up.  The result is that entry fees are paid and SCCA remains solvent.  Basically, this is the gist of the 10 concept.  If CCS doesn't see merit in that within their structure, so be it.  Just a suggestion...

[Super Dave]

Another comment on the Improved Touring class in SCCA.  The well financed guys sell their outdated Showroom Stock cars and buy new ones.  The Showroom Stock guys who've raced themselves broke keep their old cars and move to Improved Touring.  New racers on a budget buy these depreciated Showroom Stock racers and go Improved Touring because they can't afford to buy and prep a brand new car.  So some current racers who would have left the sport hang around and new budget racers join up.  The result is that entry fees are paid and SCCA remains solvent.  Basically, this is the gist of the 10 concept.  If CCS doesn't see merit in that within their structure, so be it.  Just a suggestion...

But is that a linear comparison?

I'd need an SCCA rules structure lesson, but you're saying that well financed production racers become improved touring.  So, go from production to superbike?  Or...