Attn: Duc racers...could it be???

Started by skiandclimb, September 16, 2009, 11:16:44 AM

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George_Linhart

Quote from: skidMARK on October 23, 2009, 11:34:58 AM
85-87 for the 1000DS-What? my Duc 800 with cams, HC pistons, and some excellent mapping produces 87 rwhp and still weighs as much as the DS. The 748 has more power outright hp but the DS pulls the 748 out of the corners with the torquey grunt. Yes the 748 has more RPM to work with and thus the overrev is nice at times. It sure feels like to me that the 748 is much heavier than the SS. 748-Superbike, 1000DS-Supersport.

I'll put in my $0.02I on this subject.  I love my 1000SS and we are making 100 bhp and 76.5 lb/ft of torque, but it is a very hard bike to ride fast.

Lots of resistance to turning due to the big crank, absoluely no over-rev and it really takes a lot of effort to make the most of the torque curve.  With the lack of over-rev I have found that the fastest way around the track is to come out of corners at about 4500 rpm (at which point the motor puts down 60 ish bhp and 71 lb/ft of torque) so when leaned over and getting on the gas all that torque makes it very easy to spin up the rear tire unless you are carefully modulating available traction through the throttle and hanging off.  I can get on the the throttle reasonably early, but it takes a lot of concentration on throttle control. With the lower engine speed it really feels like the tire is going to suddenly catch traction and snap back resulting in a nasty high side (hasn't happend to me yet, but it does scare me).   Alternatively, if I go into the corner in a lower gear (higher RPM) it does feel better and is more confidence inspiring to get on the gas earlier (it is past the peak of the torque curve and generating more bhp) resulting in a better mid- to 3/4 corner exit speed; but, I end up needing to catch an up-shift while still leaned way over which kills the drive or (if done agressively) is the recipie for a nasty low side as the frame flexes combined with the balance suddenly shifting off of the rear tire to a more front-tire bias (i've had this happen twice).

So - a SV/800SS/748 rider can get more useable power to the ground while leaned over to get a good early drive out of the corner while the torque advantage of the 1000SS really doesn't manifest itself until almost all the way stood up and then you have to make up for the lost ground.  This jives with the anicdotal evidence on the track - the SV guys tell me that they stay with me on the corner exits and my power advantage only seems to make a difference AFTER we are a few hundred yards down the straights.  When I am chasing an SV down I typically do so on the straghts or on the brakes, not usually out-driving them immediately off of the corner.

The frame does flex a bit (maybe more than a bit) but to me that is part of the personality of the bike that I am going to ride around.

George

funsizeracing

I still say let the 748 in. 
A good rider is going to be fast whether he's on a SV650, 1000ds, 1200XB or 748.  More competition isn't a bad thing.  It would be nice to have a few more on the grids in the LW races.

As far as everyone saying the 1000ds is hard to steer, ride, poor frame etc... I don't understand. I really don't think its any harder to ride than any other bike, actually easier than some.  Maybe I'm just not riding it hard enough or have really low standards.  I don't know.  It just doesn't seem as bad as everyone makes it out to be.
Becka
CMRA EX #126
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George_Linhart

Quote from: funsizeracing on October 23, 2009, 04:09:57 PM
IAs far as everyone saying the 1000ds is hard to steer, ride, poor frame etc... I don't understand. I really don't think its any harder to ride than any other bike, actually easier than some.  Maybe I'm just not riding it hard enough or have really low standards. 

Becka - Yes, you have low standards; but I don't think that is all there is to it.

I think that you would find that if you add another 100 lbs it makes a big difference in how the frame reacts to inputs.

To my knowledge, you are one of the few, if not only small framed (little? perhaps tiny?) person that seems to have addaped well to the 1000SS.  Most of us riding the bike with some success tend to be bigger/stronger guys who overcome the turn-in issue with brute force.  Could it be that with your lighter weight you are able to drop the front end more and acheive more agressive stearing characteristics?  Next time we are out at HPT I'll have to bring the tape measure out and see where you have front and rear ride heights.

George

roadracer162

Quote from: 123user on October 23, 2009, 12:51:50 PM
Rumors of the hp output of the stock 1000ds have been greatly exaggerated!  A really, really good 1000ds CCS supersport LEGAL build might make 95 on a loose dyno jet... mine made 79 on a factory pro...  however that converts.   And take it from me, the 1000ss frame is crap!  Especially when you start adding some power.  Until I braced the frame, mine shook badly.  My impression of the 1000ss is that its difficult to ride fast... and that seems to be a common response among others I've met that race one.

And grunt?  Thats why the RC-51 can run circles around 600's, right?  Oh yeah... they don't.  The "grunt" makes is difficult to control, making you wait to roll on.  Again we're comparing a race bike to a street bike. 

Well, I also know personally of a well set-up 1000DS that produces 93-95 hp on a Superflow dyno-don't know how that converts to the factory-pro or dynojet. Pull the airbox cover and it immediately jumps 5 plus hp. My 800SS was run on the same Superflow but on a different day when it produced the 86.7 hp.

Chris Sullivan is a very fast and competent Forida rider on his DS. He is capable of running close to or matching the speeds and quickness of the fastest Bimota in the region-that's until the Bimota got the fast motor.

Becka- I have found that the SS chassis isn't that bad and like you have said, maybe I am not pushing it as much as what it can go.

I have found that my 800SS can accelerate from corners as ferocious as a 600 and shifting while leaned over has been made easy with the use of a quick-shifter. I am sure though that the 1000 would buc considerably more.

George- I am told the the resistance thingy you face can be overcome with either a different off set triple clamps and shortening the wheelbase.

My next bling will probably be some nice Attack clamps, or go the ebay way of Monster clamps. I wouldn't mind an aluminum swingarm instead of the lead anchor on the 800.

Anyone have one?

Mark
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

Cowboy 6

#136
Quote from: funsizeracing on October 23, 2009, 04:09:57 PM
I still say let the 748 in. 
A good rider is going to be fast whether he's on a SV650, 1000ds, 1200XB or 748.  More competition isn't a bad thing.  It would be nice to have a few more on the grids in the LW races.

The real solution is the 748 gets sold and with the same money, two SVs are bought with spares.....

Lightweight people don't mind competition. We do mind chasing 110+ hp down the front straight with 80-90.

While we are on the subject, I think the hp difference between a GSXR 600 and the 750 is about the same. Let's allow the 750 into Middleweight. Why not a 2005 1000? They aren't competitive in Unlimited anymore... Sounds like a good Middleweight bike to me...
C6

www.NeedGod.com  ....   www.TPOParts.com  ....   www.Christiansportbike.com.com ....  www.woodcraft-cfm.com ....  www.ebcbrakes.com ....www.baxleycompanies.com

roadracer162

It would give me some place to run my 2002 1000
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

123user

Quote from: skidMARK on October 23, 2009, 04:48:07 PM

Becka- I have found that the SS chassis isn't that bad and like you have said, maybe I am not pushing it as much as what it can go.



Its not too bad for a SS machine, but its right on the limit.  At 115hp, it gets pretty wonky.   Plus, Becka's not exactly stressing the chassis much at 100lbs.  And I specifically remember her throwing it down at HPT for no apparent reason... other than the bike bit her.  They have a real problem with rear squat unloading the front. 

I noticed the same thing about the 1000ds SS airbox.  Pull the airbox lid... Bam! 3-4 hp.  That's why I say about 95hp tops for a SS LEGAL 1000ds

roadracer162

It seems that al the Ducatis have a restricted intake. I heard put a $3K exhaust system on a Hypermotard and get 1 hp, then open up the intake and wham an additional 6hp on tap.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

Gino230

#140
Quote from: George_Linhart on October 23, 2009, 03:45:16 PM
I'll put in my $0.02I on this subject.  I love my 1000SS and we are making 100 bhp and 76.5 lb/ft of torque, but it is a very hard bike to ride fast.

Lots of resistance to turning due to the big crank, absoluely no over-rev and it really takes a lot of effort to make the most of the torque curve.  With the lack of over-rev I have found that the fastest way around the track is to come out of corners at about 4500 rpm (at which point the motor puts down 60 ish bhp and 71 lb/ft of torque) so when leaned over and getting on the gas all that torque makes it very easy to spin up the rear tire unless you are carefully modulating available traction through the throttle and hanging off.  I can get on the the throttle reasonably early, but it takes a lot of concentration on throttle control. With the lower engine speed it really feels like the tire is going to suddenly catch traction and snap back resulting in a nasty high side (hasn't happend to me yet, but it does scare me).   Alternatively, if I go into the corner in a lower gear (higher RPM) it does feel better and is more confidence inspiring to get on the gas earlier (it is past the peak of the torque curve and generating more bhp) resulting in a better mid- to 3/4 corner exit speed; but, I end up needing to catch an up-shift while still leaned way over which kills the drive or (if done agressively) is the recipie for a nasty low side as the frame flexes combined with the balance suddenly shifting off of the rear tire to a more front-tire bias (i've had this happen twice).

So - a SV/800SS/748 rider can get more useable power to the ground while leaned over to get a good early drive out of the corner while the torque advantage of the 1000SS really doesn't manifest itself until almost all the way stood up and then you have to make up for the lost ground.  This jives with the anicdotal evidence on the track - the SV guys tell me that they stay with me on the corner exits and my power advantage only seems to make a difference AFTER we are a few hundred yards down the straights.  When I am chasing an SV down I typically do so on the straghts or on the brakes, not usually out-driving them immediately off of the corner.

The frame does flex a bit (maybe more than a bit) but to me that is part of the personality of the bike that I am going to ride around.

George


Just my 2 cents:

The DS is not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Mine is stock, only chassis mods are a lengthened and resprung / revalved shock and GMD revalved stock forks. I weigh 200 pounds sans gear.

The bike makes 86 Dynojet HP with the airbox lid intact, 91 without. 395 LBS on the asra scales this weekend. It has a lightwieght fairing bracket, bodywork, power commander, and slip ons. That's it. Oh yeah and a high flow breather.

I ran 2:05's at Daytona on pirellis in supersport trim. Yes the chassis flexes in the high speed corners, and over the bumps. But I don't have turn in problems. Supposedly mine is the best handling SS that came out of Moto Corse, It has been ridden by alot of different  (i.e. faster)guys. I'd be happy to share my geometry and setup info. I've been tinkering with it since I got the bike in 2004.

Interestingly, I make most of my time up on the drive out of the corner, even over the bumps I can get on the gas pretty hard and early. It rarely spins up. Even coming out of the barrel turn in Daytona, I'm winding the throttle wide open over the bumps. I find I don't have that much top end advantage over the SV's (but I do have some...) but who knows what they have inside thier motors. Could be my Power Commander needs a little tweaking, too. The Buells and BMW's are at least 5MPH faster on the banking, I can stay with the Bimotas in the draft but no way the XB12's. Again no idea what's in the motor.

I'm no superman, just making the point that setup is everything, I look around the shop and I'm amazed at the range of setups on the 800 / 1000's. I think a common mistake is raising the rear too far to keep the pipes from dragging and to get the bike to turn quicker. Raise the rear but raise the front too, better stability under braking, bike falls into corners better and the rear is more stable. If you just raise the rear it will turn in better, but then tops out under drive and you get the spin up. Mine is sensitive enough that when I change the gearing for Daytona, it will squat a bit more at the rear on the drive out because the chain / swingarm angle is reduced. I compensated this year by changing the front sprocket instead of just putting a tiny rear on. I still had to put a few turns on the shock to help it finish the corner.

Yeah, no overrev, and not much power above 7500 RPM, but hey, it's no superbike! I'm sure it might change things by adding a bunch of HP. Still a fun and solid bike, IMHO.

CCS / ASRA EX # 23
2012 Ducati 848 / 1100 Conversion     2005 Ducati 749RS
2006 CCS Florida Thunderbike Champion (AM)
2008 CCS LW Supersport National Champion (EX) 2nd in 2011 and now  2012....damn you Mavros!

Kurlon

Quote from: 123user on October 23, 2009, 03:15:39 PM
Ducati 748 should not have been included as a legal machine in Ultra-Light

Wording should have been twin cylinder liquid cooled, pre 1999 model year, up to 700cc

I had not read this thread as I figured it had to do with SV650, Ninja650 for next year and was just going to let ideas flow.

The correction will be made for 2009 

Bugger, looking at the rules, a pre 99 748 was looking pretty slick with that rules combo.

SS build, only you'd be allowed to muck with the airbox, so you could get reasonable HP without getting into the motor, and run it in MWSS or ULSB, and thanks to LRRS' rule tweak of not allowing liquid cooled twins 650cc or less in ULSB, you wouldn't be putting up with SVs in either class.  Still have a porker of a bike compared to a modern MW, but a good chassis, and I'm partial to Ducs...

So much for my never going to happen slick cheater bike.

George_Linhart

Quote from: Gino230 on October 23, 2009, 10:28:51 PM
If you just raise the rear it will turn in better, but then tops out under drive and you get the spin up. Mine is sensitive enough that when I change the gearing for Daytona, it will squat a bit more at the rear on the drive out because the chain / swingarm angle is reduced. I compensated this year by changing the front sprocket instead of just putting a tiny rear on. I still had to put a few turns on the shock to help it finish the corner.

Gino - As you say, these bikes are really sensitive to set-up.  I've made huge improvements from stock and already have done the custom triple clamps and offset stearing bearings.   I also lightened the crank considerably.  These made turn in much easier, but not as easy as some other bikes.  To get the rear traction that I need I intend to make changes this winter, part of it is suspension, part of it is wheel base and and part of it is likely going to require messing with the front end (I am not sure at this point if It should be raising or lowering but will do some testing).  I have noticed that even minor changes to wheel base makes a huge difference so next year I am going to see if changing chains and pushing the rear wheel back in the adjusters can allow me to get on throttle earlier.

I do really like my 1000SS, but, it is a bike that takes time and effort to ride fast.

George

roadracer162

George,

What brand tires are you using?
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.