Attn: Duc racers...could it be???

Started by skiandclimb, September 16, 2009, 11:16:44 AM

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123user

At the time, I was in favor of killing the ultra-light class instead of allowing the SV in.  From the grids at ROC, it appears that ultralight is "reborn".

From where I stand, there are no "entry-level" classes in CCS.  The money required to run a topshelf bike any of the lightweight classes is staggering regardless of whether to run the buell, 1000ds, or SV.  It appears that the lightweight bikes suck up money in "build" at about twice the cost of the middleweight, and by the time they get in the 100-115hp range they eat tires too.  My dualspark destroys tires.

Based upon rule decisions in previous years, I noticed that Kevin creates a pretty honest balance between filling grids and adding eligible equipment.  Until another manufacture adds a bike (Like an SV800), its doubtful that the rule will include 4 valve desmo's this year.   Perhaps we can table this silliness for a couple of years??

HAWK

Quote from: skiandclimb on October 21, 2009, 10:49:01 AM
Why is it that SV riders are so against the 748? There was no complaining when the SV was put into ULW.  So....it's ok for THAT move, but not for the Ducs?  I am confused.  Not flaming- just confused.

For the record I (an SV rider) encouraged people to contact Kevin to oppose that change in 2007 with the end result that the change was delayed for one year. I still oppose the reclassification.

Quote from: skiandclimb on October 21, 2009, 10:49:01 AM
The reality is that each and every year, bikes get lighter, faster and more nimble. After a while, pretty much all bikes begin to fall of the performance charts. As that happens, club racing makes moves to keep the grids competetive. The SV's felt out of sorts against big Buells, and whalah- they went into ULW. Now, there's talk of some older Ducs being allowe to run against a grid with more parody, and they should be granted the same adjustment.

Let's be honest...in 15 yearsm you'll probably see 1098's running in lower classes. lol


I know my karma will likely be smitten with anger, but them's the brakes I suppose.



From the 2006 CCS rule book.

6.1.3 - Displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:

Lightweight Supersport (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, Unlimited displacement
twin cylinder, liquid cooled 2-stroke, up to 450cc
Two stroke, air cooled, unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 675cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 1210cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 450cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, up to 675cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, pre-1987 model yer up too 565cc
Harley-Davidson Sportsters of unlimited displacement
NOTE: Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax are excluded


For 2009...

6.1.3 - Displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:

Lightweight Supersport (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, Unlimited displacement
twin cylinder, liquid cooled 2-stroke, up to 450cc
Two stroke, air cooled, unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, No-Desmodromic valves, up to 800cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 1210cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 450cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, up to 675cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, pre-1987 model yer up too 565cc
Harley-Davidson Sportsters of unlimited displacement
NOTE: Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax are excluded


Note that the performance increase of the bikes legal for LW is not really the issue, but rather the displacement of the bikes legal for LW class, which increased from 675cc to 800cc. I have no problem with the SV being displaced by newer technology but when you simply open the door to larger bikes I'm sorry but that is not technological progress and has in fact directly lead to this argument. With the original displacement limits the 748 would never have even been considered but when the LW class was extended to 800cc to accomodate MW bikes that were not competitive the new limits now included the 748.
Paul Onley
CCS Midwest EX #413

roadracer162

#110
I am not sure why there is the complaint about the 748 in lightweight(Sarcasm), it is already legal in Ultralight. There was one that actually entered ROC 2009 just that he broke earlier in the weekend. If it is legal for Ultralight, then it should be legal for LW.

I truly believe that the SV650 is a lighweight bike and the 1000 anything is at least maybe restricted from GT lights and SS. It should then be legal for LW GP and LW SB.

My Ducati 800 with motorwork is pretty even with a fully stock SV650. If the SV650 has work there is no chance of keeping up. The Ducati 800 costs more for upkeep and purchase but it is slower than the SV.

What gets me is the thought that an inline four liquid cool 450 could ever keep up with any LW bike.

Mark
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

PlayHard

Guess you guys missed the "No-Desmodromic  Valves" in the rule book.  The 748 has Desmodromic Valves and is not yet legal!  See the spec's on the bike here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_748
CCS / WERA EX #95

Jason748

Quote from: PlayHard on October 22, 2009, 11:24:26 AM
Guess you guys missed the "No-Desmodromic  Valves" in the rule book.  The 748 has Desmodromic Valves and is not yet legal!  See the spec's on the bike here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_748

Ah no... no one missed it.  We're talking about the "proposed rule change" for next year, not the current rules.
CCS MW/GP #82 am
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07 CBR600RR
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Ducmarc

you can't tell me the bike that won ultralight SUPERSPORT at daytona  was some 1500 dollar ebay special with a slipon. I built my 748r from scratch and have around 8k in it. i guarantee that the winning bike has something close to that. by the time you add everything up you do have a pile in any of these bikes i don't care which one it is .lightweight middleweight heavyweight. you really think nates bike is stock  or marco's bike,pony's, eric wood's or anyone else that finshed in the top 5 in any race   and as far as contingency , I'm talking brand contingency .i know there's tire money we get it every month but I've never had new enough bike to get any ducati money. I'm was asking if suzuki or kawasaki is still putting out or was buell the only one left in lightweight.and if you are running around on a first gen. carberated clanker your not getting any either. if you really want to stop the money train either enforce a horsepower rule or a engine buyout rule

Knedragon

while we're at it lets let the Honda RS250 run in GTL and Lteweight F40
Oh boy,Not another Oil Spewing diesel!!

PlayHard

Quote from: Ducmarc on October 22, 2009, 04:08:42 PM
you can't tell me the bike that won ultralight SUPERSPORT at daytona  was some 1500 dollar ebay special with a slipon. I built my 748r from scratch and have around 8k in it. i guarantee that the winning bike has something close to that. by the time you add everything up you do have a pile in any of these bikes i don't care which one it is .lightweight middleweight heavyweight. you really think nates bike is stock  or marco's bike,pony's, eric wood's or anyone else that finshed in the top 5 in any race   and as far as contingency , I'm talking brand contingency .i know there's tire money we get it every month but I've never had new enough bike to get any ducati money. I'm was asking if suzuki or kawasaki is still putting out or was buell the only one left in lightweight.and if you are running around on a first gen. carberated clanker your not getting any either. if you really want to stop the money train either enforce a horsepower rule or a engine buyout rule

8 out of the 11 EXPERT entries in Ultra Light Superbike at Daytona rode SV650's including the winner who ran 2:06 lap times.  Don't know the guy so I don't know what mods his bike had.  In the Amateur Group, the winner rode a 2002  1st. Gen SV650.  Mods include full exhaust, power commander, rear shock, race tech emulators in the front forks, and race body work.    His name is Darrel Ryals.  He lives in New Port Richey Florida.  I've raced against him all year in the southeast and he is a good friend of mine.  He paid right at $3,000 for it just like it sits. He ran very respectable 2:10 lap-times at Daytona on pretty much a stock SV.  He had some some head shake problems with the bike and believes he could have easily gotten into the 2:08's with it.   

None of the Manufactures pay worth a damn.  If they do, its only for one or two races per region per year.  The real contingency money comes from Michelin Tires.  I averaged close to $500 per race weekend which equals free tires.  As an Amateur rider, that is a big help.   
CCS / WERA EX #95

funsizeracing

 ts:
Quote from: PlayHard on October 21, 2009, 12:07:33 AM
I guess if you can afford a Ducati you probably don't need contingency money. 
This is sooo true.  Everyone knows all ducati owners are filthy rich.
  :jerkoff:
Becka
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sasrocks

Quote from: PlayHard on October 22, 2009, 07:35:00 PM
8 out of the 11 EXPERT entries in Ultra Light Superbike at Daytona rode SV650's including the winner who ran 2:06 lap times.  Don't know the guy so I don't know what mods his bike had.  In the Amateur Group, the winner rode a 2002  1st. Gen SV650.  Mods include full exhaust, power commander, rear shock, race tech emulators in the front forks, and race body work.    His name is Darrel Ryals.  He lives in New Port Richey Florida.  I've raced against him all year in the southeast and he is a good friend of mine.  He paid right at $3,000 for it just like it sits. He ran very respectable 2:10 lap-times at Daytona on pretty much a stock SV.  He had some some head shake problems with the bike and believes he could have easily gotten into the 2:08's with it.   

None of the Manufactures pay worth a damn.  If they do, its only for one or two races per region per year.  The real contingency money comes from Michelin Tires.  I averaged close to $500 per race weekend which equals free tires.  As an Amateur rider, that is a big help.  

wow, if he rode a 1st gen, how did he get the power commander to operate the carbs?

kawtipping

Here is what I don't understand in this whole debate...or bitch session.  If the SV is ULW legal, why would anyone be up in arms about a 748 in LW?  Is it that SV riders want to classes to try to dominate?  Hell, I know of a few SV's that killed my 996 this season in Super Twins.  I think an SV vs. most 748's would still be a very close match up.  Why not let the 748's in and see how it goes?  Worse case, all the SV's just dominate in ULW where they are the majority of the grid anyways.  This is just my opinion....be it a biased one or not.  I would love to race my 748 in more than one class and actually be competitive.  
Moto Union - Ducati & MV Agusta of Milwaukee

Who wants a pasta ride?

HAWK

Quote from: kawtipping on October 23, 2009, 12:14:01 AM
Here is what I don't understand in this whole debate...or bitch session.  If the SV is ULW legal, why would anyone be up in arms about a 748 in LW?  Is it that SV riders want to classes to try to dominate?  Hell, I know of a few SV's that killed my 996 this season in Super Twins.  I think an SV vs. most 748's would still be a very close match up.  Why not let the 748's in and see how it goes?  Worse case, all the SV's just dominate in ULW where they are the majority of the grid anyways.  This is just my opinion....be it a biased one or not.  I would love to race my 748 in more than one class and actually be competitive.  

OK, I've said it all twice now in this thread and if you go look at the SV to ULW thread from last year you'll see it all over again.

The SV doesn't belong in ULW and MW bikes don't belong in LW. Everyone keeps telling me that bikes get faster, deal with it. Can someone please tell me  why Moto-GP keeps lowering the displacement and CCS keeps increasing it? If you let 800cc machines into a class that a couple years ago had an absolute displacement limit of 675cc then HELL YES the bikes are getting faster, last time I checked anytime you make the engine BIGGER then all other things being equal it gets more POWERFUL! This isn't about the SV being pushed down to ULW (which for those who don't care to do their research, was done to make way for all the new 750cc and 800cc twins that weren''t competitive in MW  but weren't legal in LW) it's about bigger and bigger bikes, that belong in MW being let into LW.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to get back to work on my 900cc SV, It should be LW legal in a couple years.
Paul Onley
CCS Midwest EX #413