Should it be harder to become an expert?

[Farmboy]

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That right there is a perfect explanation of why Amateur Payouts and Contingency should not exist in the 1st place and why Experts should be the only one receiving them! (I've been preaching this FOREVER!!!!!!)

The way the system is set-up currently it encourages people to stay Amateur and gives little to no incentive financially for all but the fastest Experts (evidence is in the ratio of short vs long term non front running Experts racing every year). New racers are going to race whether there's payouts of some type or not (because it's new and exciting), but that's not so true of the Experts. There are alot of Racers who for one reason or another will rarely or even never finish Top 3 as an Expert, if you can't provide some type of incentives for that majority of Expert racers to strive toward than you get the results that we see every season - Experts leaving racing. Amateur status is purely a temporary stepping stone, I can't even begin to fathom why there should be more than trophies being awarded at that level?

I think one of the most beneficial things that could be done to encourage racers to stay in this sport is to take all the Amateur Contingency and Payouts and move them into the Expert ranks so the payouts could be more wide spread and even deeper into the fields to provide some type of incentive to race toward for those who will never be Top 3 as an Expert (especially in races against current and former AMA Pro's). But I also understand the main reason this won't happen is because the Contingency sponsers are using a marketing scheme to create brand loyaly as soon as possible in a Racers career by offering Contingency to Amateurs. (in comparison this is the same reason alot of companies offer free or much cheaper products to some College students, to create brand loyalty for when those students eventually leave College and will then pay full price for the products they became accustomed to using - sad but true how people are manipulated every day and many don't even realize it!)

Hmm. Disagree with you there. Some of us have no intention of staying amateur, and we expend just as much time, effort, and money as experts, so why shouldn't we be able to defray our expenses with contingency money? The payouts are generally less for any given amateur class vs. expert; doesn't this even things out at least a bit? Racing is expensive no matter what class you're in, or what your status is. I'm guessing that if contingency were eliminated for amateurs, less people would be tempted to go racing. Also, I think that the majority of racers race mostly for the fun of it anyway. Hell, if I wanted to ride relatively inexpensively, I could be a trackday coach....

[roadracer162]

Make it harder and give all the contingency to the expert field. If it is too costly to race then race a cheaper bike. Here goes my smite column.

Mark

[Ducmarc]

how about do like scca and ihra  nhra nascar and every other sanctioning body and do two or three races have three or four riders sign off on your license and shit can the whole amateur class then everyone can quit complaining .and if your not good enough do another year of track days

[Ducmarc]

 no amateurs just qalifying ? we already have the time sheets just use them . and it might be even safer fast guys up front slow guys in back and if you have a crappy weekend then your out of luck  we already have 2 wave starts with slow guys in the back anyway the only thing you might have is a ama type fast to slow ratio in the liter classes. but then the promotors would not get the working capital up front. i think i said that before. so it will never happen

[Kurlon]

Thought I'd toss my 2c in as one of LRRS's Novices.

I don't have an opinion either way on weather or not it should be more or less difficult to bump up to Expert from Amateur.  I'm kinda glad right now that despite having the needed index, number of races under my belt, desire to bump and scoring a podium or two a weekend I'm not allowed to bump, as my lap times could be dangerous amongst the Amateurs.  A 1:32 vs low 1:20s just isn't a good idea.  In Production Twins it'd be closer, but I'd still be on track with much faster machines.

That said, I do take issue with the idea that only Experts should get contingency, championships, etc.  In LRRS the only thing Novices get officially are trophies, class points aren't tallied.  There are only a couple places where we can earn contingency.  (Thank you Bridgestone!)  Our races all run separate, Ams and Exs run together as separate waves in their classes.  As a result, novices tend to get discouraged if they don't show up and immediately drop Am or better times, as the group feels like a bunch of also-rans.  Strip away what little we do get, and I think you would see less showing up to grind through the Novice rank to Am, and eventually Expert.  (I've joked about trying to organize a Novice 'Dash for Respect' to follow the 'Dash for Cash' each weekend...)

The trophies, what little contingency we get, etc are all teases, enticers, racer crack that help provide a reason for pushing on the track beyond bumping.  If you're just riding to bump, your placement no longer important because there's absolutely nothing on the line, you're effectively running an extra practice.  If I want extra practice, I'll do track days and get LOTS more track time.  Being able to brag about a win, show off the 'wood', and just maybe get a lil kickback from a mfg or two are strong motivators to keep hammering.  Yeah, it's just a Novice win, but damn if it didn't feel like real racing to us?

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Hmm. Disagree with you there. Some of us have no intention of staying amateur, and we expend just as much time, effort, and money as experts, so why shouldn't we be able to defray our expenses with contingency money? The payouts are generally less for any given amateur class vs. expert; doesn't this even things out at least a bit? Racing is expensive no matter what class you're in, or what your status is. I'm guessing that if contingency were eliminated for amateurs, less people would be tempted to go racing. Also, I think that the majority of racers race mostly for the fun of it anyway. Hell, if I wanted to ride relatively inexpensively, I could be a trackday coach....

Most racers only last 3 or 4 years in CCS (I think of them as 'generations'), currently we're in what would be about the 4th generation of racers I've seen since I started racing in '96. Sure there's a small group of us who have stayed for a decade or more, and a group of 5 - 9 year racers as well, but there's still a definite loss of racers that generally happens by the end of their 1st, 2nd, or sometimes 3rd Expert season (usually their 3rd or 4th season of racing in total). There's generally 3 main reasons people leave racing: injury, life style change (for example kids, marriage, or job), and financial - which is my focus here, how to stop the loss of  Expert racers due to the financial aspect.

For me I've made the choice of not racing the 1st 1/2 to 2/3 of the 2009 season to persue taking my part-time business I own to the next level and have now left my job of 21 years to persue full-time self-employment. That choice to temporarily suspend my racing was because racing is ALL financial loss for me, there's no financial payback what-so-ever (but even though I'm a back of the pack Expert I would still rather invest my money into a racing organization much more than a track day org any day). For me to get back up to the Top 5 I would have to spend 2-3 times the money per event that I have been in the last 5 years, yet the financial pay back would be minimal with how the system is set-up currently.

Amateur status is purely a temporary stepping stone......

That is probably my biggest justification for Expert only contingency and purse money, Amateur status is a stepping stone - Expert status is a destination for most (since that's where even the Pro's come to race Regionally).  I've read how people are saying there wouldn't be a goal to ride toward as an Amateur if there wasn't any Amateur Contingency and/or purse money, yet do you think that's any different for an Expert? If Expert was the only place where you could get financial rewards don't you think that would now be the goal as an Amateur - to improve your skills enough so you could go Expert and get some of those rewards as well? For those of you who are not Expert yet and disagree with what I'm saying, talk to me about this in 5 years and let's see if your opinion is still the same (though statistically you won't still be racing by then!).  

[roadracer162]

Hey Kurlon,

I hope that you can sift through my sarcasms on my other posts. This has been a long debated subject but it is always good to hear anothers perspective. I haven't forgotten where I come from and the effort it took for me to gain whatever I have gained.

Contingency I believe is up to the manufacturer or company that want to support and to whomever they choose to support. I am glad that they do. But there are always some racers that stay to cherry pick. I must commend Stefano Mesa from the Flroida region. He has become a fast learner at this club level of racing and within mid season switched from Amateur to Expert status. He is a mere teenager riding a Moriwaki but has shown some real speed. There are many others though that languish in the amateur ranks while others that are slower move up to compete with the experts. I commend those folks for moving up.

Speed of course is not the end all gauge for being expert. I can understand the difference in closing speeds of two different bikes. My Ducati 800 is a faster bike than say a 125GP bike, but there are tracks such as Jennings where the 125GP bike will absolutely trounce the Ducati 800 as far as lap times. The difference for me between expert and amateur is not speed, not lap times, but the skill and ability to make the right decision on track in many different situations. There are many racers that I don't mind close racing against and then others that I just don't care to. I hope that I am not one of the latter for others.

An expert for me should be one that offers confidence to his opponent when being passed, that he/she will be predictable and not be dangerous when being passed or passing me.

Mark

[alexm]

which is my focus here, how to stop the loss of  Expert racers due to the financial aspect.

Racer Mike, may I ask you why this is your focus? Is there a lack of expert racers in your classes? Would you personally benefit from more expert racers in your classes? I'm trying to understand your position on the subject a little better.

My understanding is that most of the sponsorship money comes from product manufacturers, not necessarily CCS. I'm taking a wild guess here, but I think the main motive behind the cash/product sponsorships are for advertising reasons. If I made product X, I'd like to have top amateurs and top experts using product X in order to get contingency, thus pushing it to all their friends in the process and providing advertising. I think (haven't made any real calculations or market research) that strategy would give me more exposure and market penetration than having just top experts advertising product X.

So if any of this holds true, why should my for-profit company care about your focus of stopping "the loss of  Expert racers due to the financial aspect"?

While I agree that amateurs (myself included #280) should have fewer financial incentives to be/stay amateurs and more incentives to move to expert status, I don't think that scenario is as profitable for the companies that offer sponsorships in order to gain market share and advertising exposure.

[Ducmarc]

mike with electronic timing scoring at every track which fla was the last and experts and amateurs on the track at the same time in most classes do we need both anymore .all of it could be combined and stream lined then and if your good out of the box you are rewarded and if you suck after 5 years your not. my first race at daytona years ago was thightweight 40 and croly passed me on his 750 heavyweight 40 bike with about 40mph differance that was the worst i.ve been scared .(now i watch for the leader of the first wave to avoid that)the point is why have 2 classes at all if we are all on the track at the same time .we want to use every bit of new technology we can buy but still run on a grid sheet designed in the 70's and if you can't make practice or have problems to bad i've had plenty of sorry weekends but that's the way it is.

[Ducmarc]

Oh, btw mike good luck on your busniess i've been self empolyed for 6 years and as much as i threaten to quit i don't know if i could work for anyone else.

[ktd]

Speaking to the issues I see most of you talking about.  It seems to me that track days are really hurting racing.  You go to any track day and it is sold out.  My racing grids were terrible this weekend.  Supertwins this sunday had 3 racers. I think CCS needs to team up with some track day orgs to try and get more people racing.  Find some way to attract people to come over and race.  Even the money is going to the track days.  Have you seen the sponsors for NESBA? They are a non profit and they got parts, tires, trailers, Yamaha, ...... somone is doing something right in dealing with those companies. 

[Ducmarc]

geez, don't bring NESBA up around here