updated displacement limits?

[Gino230]

Dear User 123,

Here's what I don't get about your theories:

I'm suggesting that we allow some older, less powerful bikes compete against newer more competitive machines by modifying the rules.

Your response to this is shut up and buy the newer bike.....

But when others make the point that this is club racing and there should be a class for everyone, and that rules have been written that way in the past,

Your response is Well, some people will exploit this by spending big bucks to build one-off machines to dominate the class. This makes racing more expensive if you want to win....

So which is it? Shut up and buy the newest bike (which makes racing more expensive),

OR

It's no fair because someone will build one off bikes that are too fast (which makes racing more expensive).

Seems to me the money wins (or at least gives significant advantages) either way... (as if that's a surpirse to anyone)



P.S. after 10 years of racing Ducatis and never once having an engine failure, I won't even get into your theories on Ducati maintenance.

[123user]

I trying to be consistent here, but maybe I've goofed.  I'm not really worried about the cost explosion (although it is crazy) but I am concerned over the hp increases in the LW classes.

I said either stop complaining OR go buy the new hotness.  (But I guess you're right: Either way the complaining should end)

Someone will always build some crazy bike, people have been exploiting the rules for years.  Adding the 748 just adds another platform to exploit the rules with.  Even if you think that club racing means that there's a class for everybody... that's different than saying there's a class for every bike (clearly this isn't true).  I just can't see how a bike that was a MW only two years ago is somehow a LW now?

I'm absolutely against adding machinery to different classes just because its no longer competetive in the one it originally was in.  This is completely different than an OEM building a better bike that fits in the existing rules or about some mechanical-psycho building the uber-bike that's already within the rules.  To me, adding the 748 is just purposely upping the ante.  Its practically daring me to build a new bike.

I raced a hawk for a few years.  I beat the snot out of it, ran big cams on stock heads, heavy hicomp pistons on stock, unbalanced bottom end... by rights the thing should have blow up a dozen times... but it didn't.  Based on my experience, abusing the thing was ok... but everyone knows that it wasn't. 

That's my feeling on Ducati stuff.  Many people get by on the stock bottom end and only lashing valves... well, never.  But if you want the most from the motor, you're going to have to maintain it religiously.  (I put in 20-30 hrs of maint. per weekend)  My point here is that there are people who are both talented racers and willing to maintain a heavily modified bike... and they'll win...and the complaining will continue.

[roadracer162]

I really don't think anyone was complaining about fairness. The request was made for opinions and I for one gave mine.

The 748 I speak of is the RS model and it does get pulled apart each weekend it is raced-at least so I am told and I believe it. I don't think there could be anymore maintenance than that.  Marc has been gracious enough to allow me to ride his R model and although not as fast, here again I am told it is much more reliable. He does maintain his bike after every weekend.

Don't speak about weight of one rider to another because this is club racing and it is just right back to complaining again about he is lighter than me. I know weight does give an advantage just as big bucks gives advantagfes also. For me I have seen some very fast big guys so I don't believe it is that much of an advantage. There is just as much advantage in better brake components that I can't afford.

Inherrently rules have changed along the way and handicaps implemented to keep the racing close. The Hawk beat out the FZR400 and so the FZR400 became an Ultralight bike. The SV beat out the Hawk and that became an Ultralight bike. Most currently the SV has been beat out by the Ducati1000 and so it is now in the Ultralight class.

Is there a most fair way of classifying bikes? Is there a better way than the current way? maybe we should just go with displacement of the motor and call it fair. If your Ducati 1000 can't beat a GSXR1000 then maybe you should buy a bike that will be competitive-NOT! Club racing isn't necessarily about being fair, but it is about having a friendly competition.

Sadly the TZ250 and RS250 don't have a chance against the newest middle weight stuff. They also race in the Heavyweight F40 where the 748 races in the LW F40.

I currently race the Ducati 800 that has been modified and I believe the SV is a good race. I also race the Ducati 748 and compete against the Bimota of Kevin Mendez and Duc 1000 DS of Chris Sullivan. They are faster than I am but I think it is a good race.

It's a pretty equal race.

Mark

[roadracer162]

Gino- your Karma is lacking.

[Ducmarc]

maybe if you raced more than once a year you would do better  lol. anyway how about changing vintage which no one rides in to vintage twins with like a 10 year limit henrys scraping the class. as far as the evil 748 we have lightwight 40 and tbike . i think there needs to be several classes the lower horsepower bikes can run of course these clases have been polluted by high horsepower large displacement air cooled bikes already. as for my 748 it is almost all rs+ the only r part is the cams which i might change to try and catch kevin.we are around 115hp if i had more r and d money i could pickup another 10 hp. i do a lot of maintance mainly because i enjoy it and also i'm constanty looking for some horsepower.i've bought several blown up 748s and almost everyone of them was lack of maintance. i think the maintance factor keeps most people away from it.capt. you need to have chris build you a 748r motor then you can run with us as far as the 800 ducati i think the limiter is way to low if you could turn up the motor like it should you would kill those sv's even my 900 turns 11'000  yours should turn 12,000 at least. you ready for homestead i've changed somethings we will see if it works

[roadracer162]

I am ready for Homestead. With some Michelin Xbux I should have no excuses. I plan on going out there to learn. That 748 of yours can be intimidating at times but it is a lot of fun to ride. Quick-shifter on the way? I spoke with Larry about it.

As for the 800, it is my fun bike. It is just enough to handle without getting in trouble with too much speed.

Mark

[skiandclimb]

I am in total agreement with Geno and the lot...and yes- I ride a Duc. My 996 is 10 years old, and porrly matched with the other bikes that are allowed to run in the classes I am restricted to.  For my mostly stock 996- I have the most fun competing in Supertwins....there's really no other classes I can enter and be competitive, given the other models allowed in.  HW?  Yup- ass handed to me.  UNL? Yup- ass handed to me.  Thunderbike?  Nope- CCS won't allow me to run.  MW?  Nope- although my Duc's performance is right around that of a newer 600, I am , once again, not allowed in the class.

I agree that the 848's and 1098's shouldn't be given the same "bump down" but for the 916/748/996 bikes- I do believe that the current displacement structure limits our bikes because of "Desmodromic valving" which is smattered as a bad word all over the CCS rule book.  My take- 998's and onwards shouldn't get the bump, as the Testsretta motor is a beast.  The older Desmoquattro's are the ones taking it in the ass.

I understand why (back in the day) the Quattros were limited....they once ruled the track.  However, those days are FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR gone, and have been eclipsed by smaller displacement inlines.  So, I don't see the big deal....I know we are on "outdated" machines, but we love them and own them.  They are much cheaper to race than the new hotness Ducs, and parts no longer cost a fortune.

Anyways- this is like beating a dead horse. Until CCS removes its hatred of all things Desmo- I, and the other Duc riders will be subjegated to obtuse classes.

Ce la vie.

[backMARKr]

Until CCS removes its hatred of all things Desmo- I, and the other Duc riders will be subjegated to obtuse classes.

Ce la vie.

Or buy a newer or more competitive bike.....

[skiandclimb]

Or buy a newer or more competitive bike.....

Button pusher.  LMAO

[Ducmarc]

i'm going to ask henry about a vintage twins class this weekend he might go for it and then we will have a place to our ebay junk

[Gino230]

Well, I'm glad to see that some of us agree. I guess I asked for opinions and that's what we got.

I did email Keivn Elliot with the idea, he promised to bring it up at the next rule making comittee. If anyone else feels the same, I think you should email Kevin. Oh, and by the way, this was all Hudlett's idea, since he has a 748RS that he races in 2 classes. Plus there is a ton of cheap 748s on ebay.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but it seems the rules have always evolved to keep machines running in the classes where they are the most competitive....and especially since I happen to have one I'd like to see it happen. Bigger grid, more competition, more fun!

As for you, DucMarc, you know Chris has shown me the parts manual for the 748RS, most of those parts (including the cases) are throwaways after one weekend, according to Ducati Corse...and I get mad when I have to take my bike to the shop once a season so I don't think I'll be building one of those any time soon.

I did get to ride Chris' 1098R "the beast" at the track day on Father's Day.....let me tell you, if I did have some bucks (ok, alot of bucks), I'd be going for one of those!

Oh and how does that Karma stuff work, anyway?

Mark, I have no excuses this weekend either. I've got new tires on the 1000 and we did a bunch of checks on it at Moto Corse last week. I hadn't ridden it since Daytona in October and I thought it was down on power. Less than 1% leakdown, valves are tight, PC map is intact. 92HP on the Moto Corse Dyno........the 748 / 996 is staying in the trailer, I tore my rotator cuff crashing in the pits at PBIR (I know, get your laughs in now), and I don't have the strength to ride 2 bikes for 2 days.......See you at Homestead!

[Ducmarc]

your kama is in the crapper.  ducati prints that book so chris will spend more money and i'm going to bed see you sat.