Sorry if I offend anyone, but had to share

[Super Dave]

I prefer to be flamed by those of you who disagree.

It isn't easy to be wrong, and it might be harder to be right.

But in our world where a butcher like Saddam, with no restriction, no morality, is able to do what he does...and no one thinks that what he's doing is wrong?  And that some believe that we should do nothing?

Didn't Tony Blair say something like, "...there is no reasoning, no meating of the minds...defeat it...or be defeated."  There is no reasoning with the Iraqi govenment.  Everything is exhausted.  The war goes on and must continue until it is done.  

[Super Dave]

If we agree that Saddam is bad...

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke - (British statesman - 1756)

And by not supporting the war over just supporting the troops...

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; otherwise they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."
-- Edmund Burke - (British statesman - 1756)

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Good Lord, Dave!  I'm exhausted!  WTF did you come up with all those quotes?  I feel like I just took history class all over again, except history class wasn't that well thought out.
That took some time.  Well done.

[Pit_Girl]

i just want to make a few comments about all this war stuff....

Super Dave-

I did not support the war in 1990/1991.

(from the War in Irag thread)
umm... so does that mean that you didnt support the troops back then?  ??? ;)

we've already established that i am very anti war.... so no need to open that can of worms again.  but just because i detest war does not mean that i do not support our troops who are over there fighting.  whether they agree with the war or not, they HAVE to go, that's part of the oath that they swore and the risk that they took in joining the service.  is it wrong to respect those who either are doing what they feel is right (the soldiers who agree with the war) or those who are just doing the duty they swore they would do(because they dont agree with the war) simply because I do not agree with it? no, i dont think it is.  is it possible to separate those fighting the war from the war its self? yes, yes it is.  i have immense respect for those who right now are risking their lives for this war (just or unjust), and every day i pray that this war is over soon with as little casualties as possible.  but that doesnt mean i agree with this war, and just because i dont agree with this war does NOT mean that i do not support our troops. do i not care about rhiannon or nates brother or any other soldier for that matter simply because i do not support the war? that is preposterous. i want everyone to come back as soon and as safely as possible.  

ok, i'll get off my soap box now ::)

-jen

[Bernie]

Ladies and gentlemen, there is the way things ought to be, and there is the way things are.  Welcome to reality.  There are evil people in this world that need to be killed.  Period.  God bless our troops.

[Super Dave]

just because i dont agree with this war does NOT mean that i do not support our troops. do i not care about rhiannon or nates brother or any other soldier for that matter simply because i do not support the war? that is preposterous. i want everyone to come back as soon and as safely as possible.

I'll start at the end of your statement.  I blew away some of my stuff that I wrote earlier...I'll finish that later.  So,  I'll start here.

Without the full support of the people, OUR soldiers cannot complete their task safely or in a timely manner.  Want a good example?  Viet Nam.  There are some good reasons for that war too (how many MILLIONS of people were butchered in Viet Nam, Laos, and Cambodia?).  There are many reasons for the failures there, but...

Is the point of peace to stand by to watch millions get murdered?  Is that peace?  Is it "peace" when Saddam kills 200,000 people?  Is it worth the 37  American hero's lives at this time for the good that we are trying to produce.  There will be more, but they are not dying doing a "job" or trying to get out of a club in New England.  They are people that are willing to do what it takes to make sure that right is right.

Soldiers carry a big burden.  They are people that are passionate about our country, the great experiment.  They are willing to fight to protect it, and the people that live in it.  Soldiers fight for a cause.  Their cause is to rid the world of the danger of a regime that kills its own people, supports those that terrorize others, and poses a threat to the world.  Again, the meeting of the minds, the reasoning has not worked.

Orders and following them...

That requires trust and a sense of duty.  However, to do something that is wrong...  a soldier must not follow that.  Re-read my note about the Tuskegee Airmen.  

And to willingly put yourself in harms way with a great potential to die...it's not something that one does easily.  It comes with great conviction and trust that the right thing is being done.  The conviction that it takes to do that...  Imagine the feelings that the signers of the Delaration of Independence felt;  by signing that document, they placed themselve in the position to be hanged, drawn, and quartered.  

K3...wish I could remember them all.  Found a nice website.  There was one statement in particular that I wanted...found that one, but there were so many good ones.

Ah, remember, if we do not study history, it is bound to repeat itself.  

And here we are....  the Patriots from the past speak to us.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

"Never turn your back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from anything. Never!"
-- Winston Churchill

     When Osamas' followers killed 1000's of 'ours' they were labeled terrorists and we crushed them and hunt the remains of them yet today. This was considered an unprovoked attack by most and was/is being dealt with accordingly.
     Saddam and his followers have killed and maimed over a million of 'his own' over the last two decades and have/seek weapons that could kill or maim millions of 'ours' in one swift act.
     Pre-emptive war to avert future mass tragedy of 'ours' and 'theirs' that releases a whole country from the stanglehold of someone like Saddam seems just to me. After so many years of ever increasing brutality and killing by Saddam, I believe that turning our back on Iraq and 'minding our own business' would eventually have come to 'our' shores and 'we' would be in the obvious succession of this mad-man's killing exploits. 'More time' would only benefit Saddam and give him an even greater sense of invincibility and of being feared by the world.
     Danger was lurking in the shadows with Saddam in power, running and hiding from this threat is not an option for our country, ultimately 'we' are the prize target for most all terrorists. Turning our back will only result in 'us' getting shot from behind, while looking the other way.

[Super Dave]

Super Dave-
 (from the War in Irag thread)
umm... so does that mean that you didnt support the troops back then?  ??? ;)
-jen

Ok, hopefully, I will answer this without blowing it away.

I did not support the war in 1990/1991.

And I have a National Defense ribbon in my possesion and on my DD Form 214.  For normal people, that means that I was available in the military inventory.  I did not go to Iraq, potentially my unit might have gone to Germany to replace troops that were leaving to go to Iraq.  I was just finishing my last semester for my BS in December of 1990, I had signed a contract to ride Bimota's for the Roscetti Corporation, and I was accepted into graduate school for the spring semester.

So, I did not support the war then.  Why?

The war was "sold" differently.  Iraq invaded Kuwait.  Pretty bold thing to do.  I mean, who invades countries anymore in the interest of taking them over like that?  And to that end, it seemed like an Arab issue;  an Arab country invading another Arab country...Arab countries should take care of their own business.

What was not pushed...  The fact that the invading Iraqi army raped and pillaged the people of Kuwait, the real butality of Saddam was not well publicized.  We knew that he fought Iran in the early 80's...  And to most of us that was good.  If you don't know, Iranian's took over the American Embassy in 1980(?) and held American's hostage for over one year.  We counted the days.  After a failed rescue attempt under the Carter administation, the hostages were released soon after Ronald Reagan became president.

So, I did not support the war.

As one of the people in uniform, I probably "supported" the troops like you did, Jen.  But is that really support?

Can you support someone when you do not support what they do?  I say that's like being a citizen of the Roman Republic and supporting Christians, but not supporting the Roman Colosseum.  You can't support the person and not the action that they take.  I believe that what I did then, and you today do, was to only respect the people as individuals.  

As the war went well, I could see the resolve in what we were doing, and it was good.  The commitment was incredible.  

A good friend of mine was in the Air Force and was in Iraq before all the hostilities broke out in 1991.  He knew before most people that we were going to war.  He was instructed to make out his will and write a few letters home.  They did not expect his plane to last long in combat;  they would be tracking planes and phone calls, etc. without much cover of escort.  Yes, he did it because of orders, but he also understood that he was there to take care of business.

During the conflict, everyone was glued to the TV.  I watched as six or nine missiles fell down on a Saudi air base as a plane landed live.  My phone rang, and it was my friend...who was on that plane.

So, Jen, years ago, there wasn't much of a case made.  This time around, the case is pretty clear.  September 11, 2001 is part of it.  War was put on us.  We didn't have a choice with that.

Peace is often result of harmony that often comes from:  war(WWII) or the potential for mutual destruction (the Cold War).  Can you give a perspective on that?

Every soldier is anti-war.  Why would anyone be pro-war?

And what case would it take for you to believe that anyone should go to war?

  

[Super Dave]

Here's one for you...

Let's say you and Nate are with his cousin.  Nate's cousin is a nice guy.  Everyone gets along well.  The phone rings and someone is breaking into Nate's cousin's house.  What do you do?  Probably call the police.  The police go there and find a guy that's in there that has cut off Nate's cousin's leg and is beginning to do unspeakable acts to him.  There are witnesses everywhere.  They capture the guy and let him go.  You hear about a breaking and entering story in the newspapers.

Lets say you hear about that same guy that did the stuff to Nate's cousin again.  Now, you find out that he's actually a serial killer and has been for years and years.  There is evidence everywhere.  He's been put on trial as a John Doe, in Grand Jury's, etc. They just need him to put him away.  He's on the loose and now it seems he has other "serial killer" contacts that group together.  They don't really like each other, but they have common interests.  One of those contacts broke into Nate's house while he was home.  Nate was tied up at knife point, but the contact was only able to carve on his chest for a while before you walked in.  He left.  Nate is injured but he will survive.  

What to do?  Our serial killers are Saddam Hussein, his regime, and the terrorist forces that have attacked us.  Nate's cousin is Kuwait.  Nate is the United states.  You're the people of the US (or the world, for that matter).  Do you just support the "police" that they can do things as respectable people?  Or do you give them your full support that the cause they have is just for you and for others?

[Jeff]

My God man.  Who put the nickel in Dave & when does it run out?

[Super Dave]

LOL!  I'm just one big tangent! 8)

[Pit_Girl]

I say that's like being a citizen of the Roman Republic and supporting Christians, but not supporting the Roman Colosseum.

Ok, I'm going to assume that we are talking about the Roman Empire before Christianity was granted the freedom to worship in the empire in 313 under the rule of Constantine and Licinius and before it became its official religion in the late 300's and since after 404 gladiatorial battles were banned due to Christianity being the official religion (man i love ancient history  ;) ) .... The fact that Christians were killed in the roman colesseum would probably make anybody who supports Christians not want to support the Roman Colosseum. Just because you are a citizin of an Empire does not mean that you have to agree with what your government does (freedom of speach, freedom of thought, and freedom of expression)  It's probably good to make note that the roman colosseum was a building and more of a government aided program than the Roman government it's self and definately was not affilitated with Christianity.  So yes, actually I agree with your statement. I think a more correct statement for your side of the argument would have been something like this " It's like being a United States citizen and supporting poor people, but not supporting welfare" (by the way, I support the cause of poor people and support welfare ;) )

I think it is also a good time to point out that right now everyone who pays taxes (myself included) is supporting the troops with

food and water.... bullets, fuel, [and] helmets

and  whatever else the troops need. Unless someone knows a way to get back your taxes that are going towards this war, monetarally we are all supporting the war and the troops, whether we agree with the war or not, or whether we support the troops or not.  

Here's one for you...
 
Let's say you and Nate are with his cousin.  Nate's cousin is a nice guy.  Everyone gets along well.  The phone rings and someone is breaking into Nate's cousin's house.  What do you do?  Probably call the police.  The police go there and find a guy that's in there that has cut off Nate's cousin's leg and is beginning to do unspeakable acts to him.  There are witnesses everywhere.  They capture the guy and let him go.  You hear about a breaking and entering story in the newspapers.
 
Lets say you hear about that same guy that did the stuff to Nate's cousin again.  Now, you find out that he's actually a serial killer and has been for years and years.  There is evidence everywhere.  He's been put on trial as a John Doe, in Grand Jury's, etc. They just need him to put him away.  He's on the loose and now it seems he has other "serial killer" contacts that group together.  They don't really like each other, but they have common interests.  One of those contacts broke into Nate's house while he was home.  Nate was tied up at knife point, but the contact was only able to carve on his chest for a while before you walked in.  He left.  Nate is injured but he will survive.  

Ok, this isnt really a good example from you, as I support our US justice system to the fullest but do not support our Government when it comes to this war, but I'll talk about it none the less...  I would support the police, attorneys, judges, and jury that would bring Nate's and his cousin's perpetrators to justice.  I would support them as people doing the respectable thing, because they believe that it is a just cause (no matter what I might think) and because it is their duty that they have been sworn to uphold.  

Also, I think it's important to point out that we are NOT debating the war here, that was done in the War in Iraq thread. Unless I missed something in between all of Super Daves posts, we are only discussing the support of our troops.  I dont agree with the war, but I have respect and support for those who are out there right now doing what they think is right, be them troops or protesters. Whether or not I agree with their cause, at least they believe in something and are doing what they think is right.

I'll prolly get a lot of flames from people, but I really dont care.  This all is getting pretty old. You all can say all you want that I am unpatriotic and unAmerican or that I'm not suporting our troops  or whatever.  I really dont care.  I know that I suport our troops fully and that is all that matters. I'm probably not going to respond to this thread anymore.  This all really just seems rather pointless.  You guys arent going to change my mind, and I probably will not change yours, so there is no point.  And unless Super Dave has some more quotes for us, is there really anything else to say that hasnt already been said?

- Jen