Sunoco Fuel

mdr14 · January 29, 2009, 06:51:33 PM

QuoteThe spec Sunoco fuel made 2 hp less than VP C12, no matter how we mapped it.

And when you are running MOTO ST, your competitor is also two horsepower less.. so What is your point?

My point is: For the AMA everyone is running the same fuel. THe fuel mandated that be used appeared to be good enough. And Everyone has to use the same fuel.

If we are talking a money race and no one cares what fuel we run, I'm dumping in the rocket fuel for sure. I'm sure you will too.

BlueRidgePerformance · January 30, 2009, 08:21:43 AM

My point is, it's shit fuel. Sunoco makes several fuels that are designed for use in high reving
engines. The spec fuel is not one of them.
I understand everyone has to run it, so there's not much point in bitching about it.
The fact of the matter is, if you want to get the most out of it, as you said, you have to build you engine around the fuel.

BlueRidgePerformance · January 30, 2009, 08:24:37 AM

And to answer the question about us running Moto-Gt, no we are not.
Just doing WERA Endurance.
My engine builder is fielding 2 650R's in Moto-Gt.

123user · January 30, 2009, 09:24:46 AM

Quote from: mdr14 on January 29, 2009, 06:51:33 PM
And when you are running MOTO ST, your competitor is also two horsepower less.. so What is your point?

Actually, that's a really bad assumption. That would be the case if everyone was running a spec. engine also, but they're not. Sunoco 110 is designed to not detonate during the inefficient combustion in iron-headed, wedge-chambered, 50 year old engine designs. To do this they've compromised the burn speed and flash points. When you then use this fuel in modern 4-valve, pentroof chambered motors... well then, your negating the work that engineers have done to improve motors. Would you have the engineers go backwards and decrease the chamber efficiency to make the fuel work better?

And NASCAR is the worst example of a succesful race series. They have a long history of double-dealing, applying rules unevenly, and harassing unpopular teams until they quit racing. They've created a race series with ridiculously high costs... and doing it with spec-everything. Now you need millions of dollars and hords of engineers to figure out how to make a turd fly.

Spec-anything is intended to bring in more money for the race promoter and more commercial exposure to the product, it has nothing to do leveling the playing field. I really doubt that either Moto-ST or the AMA did extensive, independant testing to arrive at the conclusion that Sunoco-110 is the best fuel for this application. I would imagine that Sunoco was just willing to write the biggest check to DMG? As far as I'm concerned its a form of corruption.

Super Dave · January 30, 2009, 09:37:53 AM

Quote from: 123user on January 30, 2009, 09:24:46 AMThey've created a race series with ridiculously high costs... and doing it with spec-everything. Now you need millions of dollars and hords of engineers to figure out how to make a turd fly.

Spec-anything is intended to bring in more money for the race promoter and more commercial exposure to the product, it has nothing to do leveling the playing field. I really doubt that either Moto-ST or the AMA did extensive, independant testing to arrive at the conclusion that Sunoco-110 is the best fuel for this application. I would imagine that Sunoco was just willing to write the biggest check to DMG? As far as I'm concerned its a form of corruption.

Well, first, they aren't using Sunoco 110, so you'll want to recheck what they are running. Indy car does not use a very good fuel either. There are much better fuels out there, but they recognized years ago that cost was a factor. Additionally, increased power and speed was a problem to the courses they ran too.

Next, why do testing? Did they test tires to decide that Dunlop was the best? Yes, it does come down to who can pay for and the supply the product for the series. But everyone can buy it. It's still cheaper than not being able to get the AA+++ Dunlops of not being able to afford racing fuels that do give actual HP improvements at the cost of an extra $25 to $100 per gallon. There are plenty of people that can give reasonable data and understanding of what the Sunoco fuel will do in an engine. It's still a gasoline.

NASCAR cost a lot. Yes, that's because they employ a lot of people to do work all the time. In Indy car, there may be a couple of PR people that are paid to work for the whole team. In NASCAR each drive might have two to three PR people. The cost is related to the competitiveness of the program. You need lots of engineers, mechanics, pit people, etc. because EVERYTHING counts in the end. And there have been sponsors that were willing to pay for it. It doesn't mean that every team will be successful, just as every business is not successful.

Don't forget that the cost of the checks from Sunoco, Dunlop, Sharkskinz, Yoyodyne, Woodcraft, and all those other "spec" sponsors all contribute to paying a guy that finishes below 25th $3k in Daytona Superbike. Mladin's purse money was only a little above that in AMA Superbike wins.

klebs01 · January 30, 2009, 10:25:08 AM

OK, so the real options are Pump, U4.2 at ~$15/gal, or Outlaw at ~$20/gal? Are there any options that would be better than pump but not as expensive?

123user · January 30, 2009, 10:48:16 AM

Being a sponsor, and requiring certain part usage are two entirely different things. Sponsorship of racing is about spotlighting the best you have to offer the consumer. Remember the "win on Sunday, sell on Monday"? When you require spec fuel, tires, helmets, etc, then you're effectively "fixing" a sponsors appearance in the race results. If you think the primary philosophy behind racing should be about dude's in suits making money... bingo! If you believe that racing is about competition, R&D, bringing a better product to the consumer... prepare to be dissapointed. If Dunlop wants to sign a deal with competitor, that's great. Dunlop will work to make that competitor's tire the best. If everybody is buying the Dunlops, what's the incentive to improve? And frankly, if the guy finishing 25th started finishing 10th and above... the tire companies would start giving them "ringers".

The total suck of the deal is this: If you're a privateer and cannot afford to change every component brand on you're bike/car/boat every year then you're unable to compete. So even if you have a solid racing platform, year to year, but you can't afford to switch to Showa and Hyperpro and Shoei and Marvic and etc from Kayaba and Ohlins and Arai and Marchesini and etc, then you can't afford to race.

For instance, I personally think that its great that Yoyodyne is sponsoring CCS. But if I had just purchased a set of Blackstone-Tech wheels for my bike that has two years of contingency, I would be mad as hell if I was forced to switch to Marvic just because Yoyodyne is a Marvic retailer.

I'm not pretending that racing is some sort of pure-science and sponsorship is totally black and white. But it's certainly taking the "run what yah brung" out of racing. If NASCAR has illustrated anything, its about how the monopoly of sponsorship only drives costs up... well that and hillbilly's are dumb, but we already knew that.

But this kinda got off topic. I know that my Sunoco 110 in my bike resulted in 300 less rpm through the Tri-Oval regardless of fuel mapping vs. VP-U4. Then, when I asked for the data sheet on it from the vendor at Daytona he said, "what do you want that for?" Like his attitude was gas-is-gas! Is that the mentality of Sunoco?

Jason748 · January 30, 2009, 10:56:03 AM

Quote from: klebs01 on January 30, 2009, 10:25:08 AM
OK, so the real options are Pump, U4.2 at ~$15/gal, or Outlaw at ~$20/gal? Are there any options that would be better than pump but not as expensive?

How much is whiskey per gallon?

BlueRidgePerformance · January 30, 2009, 11:06:32 AM

They could have easily have Sunoco bring this to the track.
http://www.sunocoinc.com/Site/Consumer/RaceFuels/UnleadedFuels/Sunoco+MO2X+Unleaded.htm

123user · January 30, 2009, 11:17:26 AM

Quote from: Jason748 on January 30, 2009, 10:56:03 AM
How much is whiskey per gallon?

On a dirt bike you only need about 2 ounces of whiskey to make you faster, anything more and you get slower. Never tried it on the track though!

Super Dave · January 30, 2009, 05:15:14 PM

Quote from: BlueRidgePerformance on January 30, 2009, 11:06:32 AM
They could have easily have Sunoco bring this to the track.
http://www.sunocoinc.com/Site/Consumer/RaceFuels/UnleadedFuels/Sunoco+MO2X+Unleaded.htm

Would work better if it were leaded.

klebs01 · January 30, 2009, 05:21:57 PM

There is a MO2X leaded version, also. I think I called about that a couple months ago and got a crazy difference in price. Like someone said 8/gal and some one else about 18/gal. If its toward the top end I might as well just use VP. Seems like there is a lot more support around for it, and a lot more experience.

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