? about CMP start/finish line...

[kl3640]

Im pretty sure Sean is saying there was not problem to begin with.. Although he has seen more races the I every would dream of, I don't agree with him on it. T1 at CMP is different that most tracks as it is tighter than any of the few i have race through. Moving Start forward keeps top speed before braking on the start lower, and in my opinion was a welcome addition. The trade off was flying past the finish into the braking area BEYOND where you needed to get on the brakes. Hence a 2nd loop ....

I never started a race from the old S/F line, so I can't say from first-hand experience how dangerous the starts might have been in the past, but having been to many different tracks across the country this year I can say that T1 @ CMP seems to be not only a tighter radius than most T1's, but also a narrower track width; so I could see where combining that with higher speeds in to the braking zone on a start, when several riders are perhaps side-by-side and jockeying for position, would be a problem.

I can state positively from experience that the finishes are dangerous, especially for guys on the big bikes, because nobody wants to yield position at the finish, but an aggressive brake marker would be at or even slightly before the new S/F.

Which is worse, a dangerous start for a bunch of people at once or a dangerous finish for potentially several people, I can't say - but the 2 timing loop scenario would definitely work, from a technical perspective.  I just don't know how well it would work logistically for the Officiating Staff, e.g., would they need two towers, would the officials have to move between them after the start but before the completion of the first lap and get in to place all in about a minute and a half, etc.

[Mongo]

First, one doesn't simply, "tape down [additional] loops." Also, unless I'm mistaken, the old loop still exists in place at the old S/F line, so the point is moot anyway.

Second, what you're basically stating is that the old S/F line wasn't an issue for T1 during starts?

Um, yeah, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but one does indeed simply tape down a new loop.  One does this at a number of tracks.  Of course one was also installing loops in tracks before even SCCA was using electronic scoring.

The other loop being in the track has no effect on anything.  You might want to swing by a tower sometime or offer to help set things up to get an idea of how things really work before jumping to conclusions...

The "old" S/F line at CMP has always been an issue and we've never used it.  It's too close to T1 so we don't use it for starts or finishes.  I think our first race there we might have started there and moved towards pit in for the checker but it's been a while. 

[Mongo]

Greg - yes it is tighter and it is a different angle than a lot of T1's but with all the races we've run there I can think of only one crash start which is less than Roebling and a lot of other tracks.  Our first row is right where the first road runs from pit lane into the paddock.  It's funny because while the speed is higher, it's still slower than full race pace and with that much room people tend to spread out rather than bunch up.  I think also it helps that visually it's a lot like any other time you go through one so most use their normal brake markers even though they're going slower which gives them a lot more leeway. 

Basically you guys have already described more checker crashes and runoffs than we have ever had on starts. 

[Mongo]

Oh yeah - the Starting "tower" we use is the back f an available pickup truck.  Never had an issue with visibility even on large grids.

[MELK-MAN]

Oh yeah - the Starting "tower" we use is the back f an available pickup truck.  Never had an issue with visibility even on large grids.

I like this idea. I or hopefully someone will bring it up early enough to move it back some.

[kl3640]

Um, yeah, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but one does indeed simply tape down a new loop.  One does this at a number of tracks.  Of course one was also installing loops in tracks before even SCCA was using electronic scoring.

The other loop being in the track has no effect on anything.  You might want to swing by a tower sometime or offer to help set things up to get an idea of how things really work before jumping to conclusions...

The "old" S/F line at CMP has always been an issue and we've never used it.  It's too close to T1 so we don't use it for starts or finishes.  I think our first race there we might have started there and moved towards pit in for the checker but it's been a while. 

Um, yeah, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but one simply tapes down a loop-antenna IF one wants to have to re-tape it, risk having it move, break, etc.  And Um, yeah, hate to be the bearer of bad news again, but if one does this at a number of tracks, then one is in the minority as any properly installed loop antenna is buried/embedded, plain and simple.  I'm not jumping to conclusions and I don't need to stop by your scoring tower or pickup-truck starting tower to know the proper way to install a loop-antenna vs. the band-aid way.  BTW, the vast majority of tracks in the US have their timing loops buried, not taped.  Maybe you should stop by their scoring towers or offer to help setup some time before jumping to the conclusion that your duct-tape-fix-it-all solution is optimal.

And by "old s/f" I meant the way it was before 2008, not wherever it was whenever, back before SCCA used electronic scoring and you were driving up the price of Permacel's stock; the point being that the old loop-antenna is likely still in place and could still be connected to a balun, not that it would interfere with anything.

If the old loop is still in place (and doesn't need to be duct taped down to remain that way), then the Race Manager system (at least in the Westhold world, am guessing the same for AMB, though this being a CCS forum I'd submit that perhaps only the former is relevant to this discussion) could be configured to start scoring the first lap AFTER the first loop crossing of the finish line (i.e., the out lap).  The advantage would be a single loop; the disadvantage would be a skewed timing result for the first lap and the total race time.  Or two loops could be used to solve that problem.

[Mongo]

Amazing, so you're wrong and now you're defensive about being wrong.  I never said taping down a loop is optimal, I said that is what I do at CMP.  The track is planning on installing a loop where I need it for our races, I left them the loop and cabling last year.  If they do not get it done then I'll do it myself the next time we're there.

I'd love to hear why a second antenna being in the track has anything to do with the one being used for scoring.  I'd also love to hear how a taped down loop won't work when I have done so successfully at I'm willing to be more races than you've attended.  I've got more experience setting up and running the AMB system than even AMB in the US does at this point.  The Westhold stuff uses AMB's loop antenna so what I'm saying holds true for both systems.  I've also installed the original antennas at Roebling, Jennings, Talladega, and a number of other tracks - which means I have a pretty good idea of what proper and improper is.   

Before you start trying to tell people what will or won't work, you really should know more about the subject at hand...

[honda60071]

Guess the grinch made his rounds this year

[kl3640]

Amazing, so you're wrong and now you're defensive about being wrong.  I never said taping down a loop is optimal, I said that is what I do at CMP.  The track is planning on installing a loop where I need it for our races, I left them the loop and cabling last year.  If they do not get it done then I'll do it myself the next time we're there.

I'd love to hear why a second antenna being in the track has anything to do with the one being used for scoring.  I'd also love to hear how a taped down loop won't work when I have done so successfully at I'm willing to be more races than you've attended.  I've got more experience setting up and running the AMB system than even AMB in the US does at this point.  The Westhold stuff uses AMB's loop antenna so what I'm saying holds true for both systems.  I've also installed the original antennas at Roebling, Jennings, Talladega, and a number of other tracks - which means I have a pretty good idea of what proper and improper is.   

Before you start trying to tell people what will or won't work, you really should know more about the subject at hand...

Defensive?  Read through your response and see who got defensive.  And as far as being wrong, I suggest that you read and then re-read the thread to understand the points that you're missing.

I know plenty about loop antennas...what's funny is you thinking that you're perhaps the only expert on the subject in the land.  What's funny is that you can probably enumerate to the foot how much duct tape is required to tape down a loop, but probably couldn't begin to discuss what frequencies they operate on with the transmitters, and so on.  Taping down a loop antenna is by no means a long term answer to the subject of this thread, which is about how to solve the problem of bowling-alley starts in to T1 at CMP and drag-race finishes in to the braking zone for T1.  So the discussed solution (since you'd love to hear why a second loop antenna could have anything to do with scoring) was to either utilize two loops (the one at the existing S/F and the one that was used previously, if it still exists), so that the more forward  one could score the start of the race (first crossing) and the one further back could score every subsequent lap completion (at the finish line) - so that assumes a separate start line for the first lap only - get it?  I suggest that you read threads before responding blindly.  The other option is to change the timing system software (easy enough) to count the first lap after the first loop crossing, i.e., when everyone passes the finish line to grid up for the start on the out-lap.  Both scenarios have their advantages and disadvantages.  I'm not sure why an expert on the subject like yourself is having so much trouble grasping the concept.

As far as Westhold using AMB's loop antenna and vice-versa, the loop antenna is basically that...a loop of wire, and the baluns are interchangeable with the antennae, so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything - it's more a matter of from whom you purchased the wire.

And as far as you having taped down antennas at more races than I've attended, that's probably true...but that doesn't make it the proper thing to do.  Suggesting a patch-work solution as a permanent fix to the problem at hand is ridiculous.  Maybe taping down an antenna is a great idea when you have a problem to fix immediately, or when you're looking to setup that mini-moto course in the parking lot of your local abandoned warehouse, but it's by no means a fix to the problem being discussed in this subject.

But feel free to go on making Permacel's shareholders rich if you want.

[Mongo]

No one suggested it as a permanent solution - try actually reading my posts rather than reacting.  I said a tape down loop is what we use.  You said it wouldn't work.  Period.  Well you're wrong, it will and does work just fine.  Since then you've been running your mouth about all sorts of things but it comes back to one thing, a tape down loop does work as a temporary measure.  It works for an entire weekend. It works for sprint racing, it works for Endurance racing.  It works. None of the issues you insist it would have actually happen in reality.  Yet you continue to argue with me about it which is hilarious.

I have never said I'm an expert on loop antennas, I am however an expert on using them to score motorcycle races.  There are other options that can be used at CMP than the two you have listed, oddly enough including the one I have been using to successfully start and finish races at CMP since the first motorcycle event there.  The perceived issues in T1 do not happen, the issues on the checker do not happen.  It may not be the only solution but I feel it's the best one and unlike all of your supposition mine has actually been tried and proven to work. 

You keep going off about the second loop - how about this for a solution, don't plug it in.  No baluns, no bullshit, just don't attach it to the decoder...  I know - revolutionary thought.  There is no need to start the grid that close to T1 and even if you did - there is no need to use that loop.  Total race time is a moot point in scoring a sprint race. 

BTW, the AMB software does indeed have a setting so you can start the scoring after the bikes all leave the grid, it's necessary at a few track we race on where the grid straddles the loop. 

Now, if you'd like to continue arguing how to run and score races, by all means feel free but please don't be upset if I don't respond right away.  I have to fly to California tomorrow to actually go do so in person at an actual racetrack while you sit at home stressing over Permacel...  FWIW I'm not partial to any brand/manufacturer of tape, I use whatever is handy.

[Sig]

FWIW I'm not partial to any brand/manufacturer of tape, I use whatever is handy.

[Knedragon]

I'm no expert on anything but why would it hurt if you put the loop back where need be and then start the race towards turn #1?So the out lap would be a long one but it wouldn't hurt anyone if they all run the same times on the out lap.