Serious Question........

[ccs56]

Stephen PLEASE KISS MY LAZY UNION ASS.

[SV88]

Well Steve you have just let your ignorance out of the closet. (I'lll take the high road on that one and won't dignify that with a response)

First, you call the biggest part of the problem the retirees. Let's not forget that those retirement benefits were covered by OVER funded pension funds that the exec's raided in the dot.com era to line their own pockets. Of course when the dot.com era went bust and the pension funds became UNDER funded (due to inappropriate "borrowing" by the exec's) they couldn't pay back what they had taken so they asked congress to make some new laws to give them more time to bring funding back up. What this is called in the real world is theft, you see the exec's were left unattended with the benefits of the over paid lazy assed union workers and they spent them while no one was looking.(I know that United raided the pension plans - I don't believe that happened with the automotive companies - but regardless, the large retiree pool (which the japs don't have) is undermining the former big three's competitiveness.  The jap. co. do not have the same burden.

Second, I am an overpaid lazy assed union worker who has seen not raises but pay cuts for the last 15 years all the while the 300 top exec's have seen double digit raises. In fact 100% of my union groups last concession went straight into the pockets of those top managers as bonuses. Funny how even though their management is leading the company down the toilet they still get their bonuses. (You're one of the hardest most competent workers that I know so you do not fall in that minority) union workers, lower/middle level mgt and professionals have all experienced the same thing.  No question that exec. comp. is out of touch.  United was the one of the first pension raiders - so much for an employee owned co.

Third, You tout globalization as a good thing that will make products cheaper, the only detail you don't seem to understand is that the only ones in this country that will be able to afford them will be the top level exec's (BTW the workers in other countries that are providing low cost labor can't afford these products either) so you should consider your lifestyle predicated on those lazy assed union grunts you so resent. Just an aside here, you are aware that engineering is the current darling of the outsourcing game, right? (Did I tout globalization as being positive for N. America/Europe... I think not.  It's only benefitting third world countries.  I agree that the economy will collapse if the middle class continues to lose purchasing power.

Finally Steve, I would be rather careful how you portray yourself and your employer, Marathon, I (and some others as well) might just go off on a tirade about BIG Oil, wait a minute, didn't their most recent windfall precipitate this whole mess?

Dave described what led to high oil prices - I won't deny that big oil benefitted - right now, we are losing our shirts!!

[Super Dave]

Explain the summer's gas prices and why coming into the highest demand week they are half that.

Sensitivity is often about proximity.

Why aren't you recalling the huge drop in prices that immediately followed the change in administration in early 2001?  Dramatic drop in price.  Lowest I paid was under 70 cents, but the national low was 60 in North Carolina.  I thought I'd never see that.

Meanwhile, in 1980, you could buy the game Stop Thief for about $40.  On ebay, how much do you pay now?  LOL!

[backMARKr]

While you all catch your collective breath... I would like to give kudos to Rick for pulling out all the stops and digging super deep into that repertoire of shit disturbingness and coming up with something really special...


and Steve..be careful....all those Southern Illinois IBEW electricians in Robinson can be a fairly unforgiving crew.

[gpz11]

I'm not defending anyone here but the high price of gas was not the fault of the big oil. It was the result of all the speculators driving the price of oil through the roof.

Didn't Congress go to OPEC and ask about increasing supply and their reply was that there isn't a shortage so why increase the supply?

If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me. 

[SV88]

Probably should have stuck to the topic @ hand instead of going off on an alcohol induced rant @ 3 am (the F@##$%$%^g  A*&^%^%%l that called my cell @ 1am - when i was being picked up for a track day @ 5:30 may have had something to do with it.

Do I think the US automotive co. should be bailed out?  No.  My experience is that several Canadian Crown Corporations (Gov. owned Co) had been bailed out in the '80s and 90's eventually failed.  It would have been cheaper to pay all of the workers full salary until retirement.  Short/medium term this is going to be very tough for thousands of displaced workers.

Internationally, we are no looking too good right now.  How could we mess up one of the strongest economies? - additionally we are affecting the rest of the world.  When the US sneezes, Canada goes into a coma and the rest of the world gets the flu.

[Super Dave]

Do I think the US automotive co. should be bailed out?  No.  My experience is that several Canadian Crown Corporations (Gov. owned Co) had been bailed out in the '80s and 90's eventually failed.  It would have been cheaper to pay all of the workers full salary until retirement.  Short/medium term this is going to be very tough for thousands of displaced workers.

Internationally, we are no looking too good right now.  How could we mess up one of the strongest economies? - additionally we are affecting the rest of the world.  When the US sneezes, Canada goes into a coma and the rest of the world gets the flu.

Thanks, Steve.  The reference above about Canadian Crown Companies what I was going to ask for next.  If economists and meterologist always only looked at "models" rather than what has actually happened in reality, their opinions might be different.

[Super Dave]

I'm not defending anyone here but the high price of gas was not the fault of the big oil. It was the result of all the speculators driving the price of oil through the roof.

Didn't Congress go to OPEC and ask about increasing supply and their reply was that there isn't a shortage so why increase the supply?

If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me. 

Big oil would have been involved in hedging in commodities markets too.  That's how they keep supply even and pricing smoother. 

As for OPEC, yes, they asked them.  That's the law of supply and demand.  If OPEC raised production, there would be more oil, and prices would drop.  If there is "too much" oil, prices go down.  If we got our own oil here, there would be more oil available on the market and prices would drop too. 

Yeah, it is all "speculation" on future oil, but it has a purpose.  Corn, wheat, and a lot of other things are traded this way too.  It isn't a bad thing.  It's how the world and even local economies work.  Even beef lots.

[dylanfan53]

While you all catch your collective breath... I would like to give kudos to Rick for pulling out all the stops and digging super deep into that repertoire of shit disturbingness and coming up with something really special...

    Exactly what I was thinking after I spent a couple hours this weekend typing and then deleting posts so as not to trip into Mr. Weaver's cauldron of steaming you know what. 

[Burt Munro]

As entertaining as this thread has become, can I bring it back to the original purpose for my posting it?  (Oh hell, just let it take on a life of it's own!) 


My original thoughts were along two lines:

1. Concern for those people who are being directly impacted by this major shakeup in the auto industry and a weak attempt at getting people to think about how far reaching this all is.......

- from the the Big 3 manufacturers, to their parts suppliers, to the companies who supply the parts suppliers. 
- To the local businesses whose revenue is dependant on all those affected upline and downline employees spending money in their stores,
- to the tax base of the communities where all these people live,
- to the school districts whose budgets are dependent on the infrastructure above that is impacted. 

The multiplication factor is tremendous here.

2. Concern that a bankruptcy filing in an industry such as this is much more complex that almost every industry .........   

- because of the fact that purchasing a car/truck is the 2nd largest purchase in the lives of virtually everyone in the country.
- And the fact that there are so many different specific needs that people look for in a car or truck and the options you value when deciding which vehicle to buy.  One size doesn't fit all.  (YAHOO - You Always Have Other Options)
- And the long term needs you have from a company for years with service and parts for a car or truck.
- And the role that consumer confidence plays in sealing the fate of companies that are tetering on the brink of collapse.


I am on the fence as to what form of government assistance (incentives?) should be pursued.  A blank rescue check is not an option though.  Advanced technology development has to be part of the solution.

I fear that just letting the chips fall where they may is not the answer and will have widespread, unforeseen devasting impacts on the country as a whole.

my .02

[Super Dave]

I am on the fence as to what form of government assistance (incentives?) should be pursued.  A blank rescue check is not an option though.  Advanced technology development has to be part of the solution.

I fear that just letting the chips fall where they may is not the answer and will have widespread, unforeseen devasting impacts on the country as a whole.

my .02

It's a hard one, isn't it?

I mean, all this bailout stuff is really mismanaged with no accountability.  The more talk about "where the money is going" results in taxpayers questing the regular course of business that businesses do.  I mean, yeah, Citibank is giving money to a baseball field.  That's there previous course of action.  That also built jobs, developed goodwill in the market place, blah, blah, blah.  Put government money in there and now it's a socialist process where "the people's money" is now a great and regular concern to the operation of a company that was forced to take the money.

Auto companies...

How many billion is the talk about?  Hey, wanna bail them out?  I think $15 billion would buy 500,000 people a $28,000 car from the big three. 

As for this idea that a mandate within a bailout would shit some kind of new technology "that people want to buy", it won't work.  No permit ever built a bridge.  That stuff comes from the minds and hands of men.  Who ever can figure out a hydraulic hybrid or something will make money. 

Sure, Toyota is selling Prius...Prii?  Ford has the Escape hybrid.  I bet both Toyota and Ford are still doing better with their bigger cars and trucks...cars that people want to buy.  Not those that we're told we're supposed to have...buy those that know so much more than us.


At some point when the vital signs of brain activity is gone, the body begins to let go, you pull off the ventilator.  It sucks, but it needs a fundamental change.

[HAWK]

Alright I've bitten my tongue till it hurts too much to keep biting it.

I work for the airline industry. Yes I am one of those overpaid union jackasses. I am FORBIDDEN from striking to force my employer to capitulate at contract time because my services are SO IMPORTANT that the economy as we know it would cease to exist if I were to strike (have a look at the Railway Labor Act) but the federal government saw fit to deny a bailout request several years ago.

Now the auto industry wants a bailout, HELL NO! As a result of the denial several years ago the airlines have played the bankruptcy game and guess what, you can still fly from here to there. What's that you say? the auto industry has so many support industries that will cave in if we don't bail them out? Let's see, how do people get to and from the airport, how do their bags get handled, how about the whole vacation industry, how many products are shipped by air how many people are employed in the simple operation of an airport. No the big 3 are not isolated, neither is any other industry. You can hand them some money and let them continue to operate status quo or you can force them to change to survive. I don't think ANY of the bailout is right we're just letting the fat cats keep playing their game only with the little guys money instead of their own.

Just my .01, can't afford .02 anymore.