Serious Question........

[Gixxerblade]

My brother and myself were discussing the Big 3 situation last week and we both feel what needs to be done is for the ever fabled consolidation to happen. Something that's been tossed around for some time is the combining of all 3 auto makers into 1 company that doesn't compete against each other on a domestic front, but together as 1 powerful company on a global market. Decide which model in each catagory is the best and improve it by taking the best features from the overlapping/competing vehicles (and getting rid of those other vehicles all together) would create vehicles that were far more competative on the global market. If the best of what each company has to offer in designers, leaders, manufacturing processes, engines, specific vehicles, etc. was brought together into 1 company the chances of success would most likely skyrocket. There are still the issues of mis-management and waste, but that could be worked out in a consolidation.

Sure it's great to have a ton of choices in Domestic vehicles, but making sacrifices by having less choices in a model category and having better vehicles would make up for that and provide more dependable vehicles with more possible customizable options as well. 

Good idea comrade.   ::)

[SV88]

First of all they haven't been the big three for a couple of years!! The main problem with the US auto industry is that they are burdened with very expensive retirees.  I feel that most laborers are grossly overpaid for what they do.  Even the Japanese makers here in the US are paying way too much for workers.  The difference is that they have not been here for long (no retirees....yet).  I would hesitate to blame management for Detroit's woes.  In most cases, these managers are hampered by very powerful unions which often protect the lazy, the underqualified and dishonest worker.  I remember thinking as I visited the York, PA Harley plant that it was essentially run by the union.  A hard working, smart worker doesn't need the union - in fact they resent it because it cost them money and protects the slackers.  On the other hand, it is clear that American management has not done itself any favor - there is no way a CEO is worth 300x what a worker makes.  In Europe, the top C-level execs make maybe 20-30x the compensation of the entry level worker.

Either way, even the Japanese will lose the battle to the lower paid Koreans, Chinese and Indians.  The next huge pool of cheap labor is Africa. 

My refinery has hired college and even masters levels grads into entry level operator positions because it can.  They pay top $$ - so we have guys with advanced math degrees loading up railcars.  This is beneficial for the company and makes more and more sense as we reduce the amount of low skill labor in favor of technical work.  Gets workers out of dangerous areas also.

Globalization is really tough when you're on top of the heap as the US and Western Europe has been for decades.  On the other hand, it is generally very good for third world countries.  You cannot pay a disgruntled union worker $37/hr to assemble a dashboard when some girl in India will happily do it for $2/hr.  We're seeing this more in more in IT and Engineering also.  Most of our P&ID are sent to India via the internet for cadding.

Until, the world is an even playing field (economically, environmentally and socially), low skill jobs will migrate to the cheapest labor pools.  The only thing we can do, is become very qualified, specialized and competent such that a cheaper overseas person cannot replace us.

My 0.02

[Gixxerblade]

So a big problem is the overpaid mis-management team and the overpaid dis-honest worker. I agree that the $75/hour is a lot of money but I also agree that the hge paychecks that the CEO's is out of bounds. I have never worked for a union run company so I can't comment either way.

This is what I call leadership by example. When things got tough this Japanese executive cut all of his perks and dropped his salary to $90,000 USD. He takes the bus to work! Even his pilots make more money than he does.

http://charter.net/video/?vendid=18&vid=166584&sc_cid=wvtaba1

[Mark Bernard]

Stephen... I was going to sit here and try and to reply to some of the things you said in your last post, but I would be wasting my time typing the words. For you see, I am an employee of an American automotive manufacturing facility and because I make... what was it you said?  $37 hr?

My all mighty powerfull union (which is allowing for plant closing after closing, job cut after job cut) wont allow me to say what is true because I am lazy, underqualified and dishonest.

So I am gonna sit here on my disgruntled ass and wait for my retirement and collect my fat ole pension and watch them replace me with a college educated engeneer whom spent THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of $ on his/her education just to work loading boxcars for.... not top dollar, but a mear $12 hr.

Grow up!
That's "my" 0.02

[tug296]

I worked for Lee Chevrolet in the 70's, transmission mechanic.
Being in Jax. Fla. non union etc, I saw the problem way back then and wondered how long can they keep it up, all these years later it's caught up with them.
Bottom line is they can't continue as they are, that party is over and needs re-doing.
I'm still a member of Operating Engineers local 25, {Maritime}

[HAWK]

Well Steve you have just let your ignorance out of the closet.

First, you call the biggest part of the problem the retirees. Let's not forget that those retirement benefits were covered by OVER funded pension funds that the exec's raided in the dot.com era to line their own pockets. Of course when the dot.com era went bust and the pension funds became UNDER funded (due to inappropriate "borrowing" by the exec's) they couldn't pay back what they had taken so they asked congress to make some new laws to give them more time to bring funding back up. What this is called in the real world is theft, you see the exec's were left unattended with the benefits of the over paid lazy assed union workers and they spent them while no one was looking.

Second, I am an overpaid lazy assed union worker who has seen not raises but pay cuts for the last 15 years all the while the 300 top exec's have seen double digit raises. In fact 100% of my union groups last concession went straight into the pockets of those top managers as bonuses. Funny how even though their management is leading the company down the toilet they still get their bonuses.

Third, You tout globalization as a good thing that will make products cheaper, the only detail you don't seem to understand is that the only ones in this country that will be able to afford them will be the top level exec's (BTW the workers in other countries that are providing low cost labor can't afford these products either) so you should consider your lifestyle predicated on those lazy assed union grunts you so resent. Just an aside here, you are aware that engineering is the current darling of the outsourcing game, right?

Finally Steve, I would be rather careful how you portray yourself and your employer, Marathon, I (and some others as well) might just go off on a tirade about BIG Oil, wait a minute, didn't their most recent windfall precipitate this whole mess?

[Super Dave]

...go off on a tirade about BIG Oil, wait a minute, didn't their most recent windfall precipitate this whole mess?

I don't think it did.  It was the continued shoddy lending issues to individuals that were bad risks for home loans.  Eventually, the buying bubble reached a peak, including the buying by illegal immigrants, and the bubble in building burst, values dropped below what people owed and were never good risks in payment either way.


Big oil?  If it weren't for big oil, we'd have small oil with supply problems that would lead to higher prices and even more volitility that would generate further problems for domestic and foreign products besides gas...

Like tires, laptops, TV's, sportswear, etc.  Please, look at what you have in your house and in your whole environment that is made from petroleum products in plastics, polymers...leather uses petroleum in the tanning and dying process too.  With growing populations of consumers in other parts of the world, the cost going up is part of the law of supply and demand. 

[HAWK]

Dave, I refer to BIG Oil in the profit sense. If the petroleum  prices of the summer were warranted then how can the industry survive at the current prices? Why is it that the automakers are decried for their prices, the airlines are decried for their fares..... and you seem to believe that the summers oil prices are warranted?

Yes, there were some very iffy loans being made, if they had been paid back would we be in this mess? Why did the homeowner (irresponsible as he/she might have been) default oh their loan? because they had a surplus of cash lying around? No, because their food bills went up, their cost to get to and from work went up, the products they buy went up, all of these costs rose dramatically over the last year. What did all these things have in common? How can anyone justify the cost of their product going up over 100% in a 5 year period and then in months falling almost as much? Sounds like someone rode the wave for all it was worth. We are coming into the HIGHEST travel demand week of the entire year and gas prices are 1/2 of what they were 5 months ago.


A risky loan is just that, it means nothing, unless it is not paid. The big picture.

BTW, I'm an overpaid, lazy assed, union worker whose been about to be laid off for the last 10 years, most of what's in my house is used, ALL of my TVs, microwave, furniture... is something that someone else bought, used, and was going to throw out, I was able to repair it and give it a second lease on life and give myself a luxury I couldn't otherwise afford.

[Super Dave]

Dave, I refer to BIG Oil in the profit sense. If the petroleum  prices of the summer were warranted then how can the industry survive at the current prices?

Ok, I'll focus on that part.

Since the taxes that the government receives is double if not triple their profits...

Government is a bigger problem.

Oil has lead to the development of many things that consumers need and use.  Permits, regulation, and taxation has not. 

[HAWK]

Dave I will not argue about Gov being a big problem, on that we can agree.

Please name another industry with Oil's profits.

Explain the summer's gas prices and why coming into the highest demand week they are half that.


BTW due to the summer's oil prices I am being laid off in Jan.

[HAWK]

Back to the intent of this post, should the big3 be bailed out? NO!

Yes this will hurt a lot of workers in this country in the short term. In the long term they will find other work.

A bailout however will play right into the hands of poor management, they will continue to operate business as usual, tighten the belt on the workers and continue to live high on the hog.

I would rather see the business go under and have to start over again. Will the top brass regain their stranglehold on labor? Yes, they will however have to rebuild their machine rather than simply refueling on the bailout dime. I hope.

I am sick and tired of the overpaid, lazy assed, union worker (who is BTW lower middle class) being the root of all that is evil in America.

Man up and justify your due with your accomplishments, not by belittling someone else.

[Super Dave]

Please name another industry with Oil's profits.

Explain the summer's gas prices and why coming into the highest demand week they are half that.

I'll keep it simple.  I answered the first question.  Government by volume of just their take from our need for oil for our kids, etc.

After that, there are tons of businesses, large and small, that have profit margins above oil.  There is not debate on that.  A place I worked at had a higher margin. 

Prices rolled up because of the world wide demand, ever increasing in places like India, China, etc. with their higher populations wanting to do the things that we do.  Consumer spending, driving, etc.  China was also stockpiling petroleum products for the Olympic games so they didn't have a shortage in house while everone was visiting the People's Republic. 

After that, demand did, as it has traditionally, fell heading toward the northern hemisphere's fall.

But, additionally, one must recognize that world wide purchasing of crude is based in barrels in US Dollars.  The US Dollar made a comeback, and it now buys more than it did before.  Listen to all the Canadians about how their Dollar was worth more than ours.  Well, it's not that way anymore.  I think a Canadian Dollar is work $.80 again.

Don't discount media hype too.  It affects consumer spending.  I know that in May of 2001, if one had some business records, I could see some changes in my personal business that I felt, but didn't recognize until someone from CCS raised the point that Greenspan spoke the word "recession" then.  Similarly, all the talk has beat up consumers confidence. 

As for work, hey, I'm looking too.