new to CCS, need advice please

Started by shadowsprint, October 05, 2008, 09:49:15 PM

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shadowsprint

Hello all,  my name is Shane.  Im 28 and looking at getting into ccs racing for the first time next year.  I was racing MX from age 12 to 21, then raced sprint cars from 21 to 27.  Ive been riding sport bikes for fun since I was 16.  My wife and I are interested in racing in 2009, in the great plains and mid-west regions, and I want to convert my 2007 zx-10r for the track, but Im wonderign if a liter bike is too big to start out on?  Maybe people do it all the time, or never, for their first time, I just don't know.  My wife wants to start a well on an R6.  Just looking for a little info as to what people think, or if they suggest starting on a smaller bike.  Thanks in advance.

Shane

x mud slinger

instead of converting your street bike why don't you look for a already built race bike, in the for sale section there is a nice F2 for 2500 that would be great for you or your wife and you could just start there and progress.

shadowsprint

the reason i want to use my bike is because when i was loading it into the back of the pickup a few weeks ago, the ramp I bought from lowes broke and the bike fell, landing on concrete and doing $7900 in damage.  Instead of spending all the money to bring it back to stock, I would much rather just buy a race body kit, strip it down, and put the extra money into performance parts and spares to go racing.  After racing my whole life, I feel confident that I can handle it on the track after plenty of acclimation, I just didn't want to be the only guy to ever show up for the races for the first time with a 1000cc bike and have people look at me like an A-hole.

r1owner

I sold an R1 to get a GSXR 600 to race.  Still managed to highside my first weekend! :)

For me a liter bike was too much.  I guess it's up to the individual.

R1Racer99

$7,900 in damage? How the hell do you figure that?

It's not impossible to start on a 1000 but like the guy above I tried it and went with a 600 instead. It's easier on tires and is easier to ride fast. Also, not sure what tracks you're planning on going to but other than the motor the '06-07 ZX10R is not the best track bike.

Super Dave

What kind of tire budget do you have?  Honestly, a ZX10R ridden well can trash tires in a matter of a few laps.  A 600 is a better choice, and an SV650 is an outstanding choice.

Super Dave

bel-biv

Have you put the 10 on the track at all? (track days - if so, how many)
I started racing on a liter bike, but had 4 years of fairly regular track days (6+ per year) under my belt
That on-track experience helped me make the transition

If you haven't had the 10 on the track at all, then I strongly recommend that you start off with something smaller
There isn't much margin for error when 160 +/- ponies are connected to your right wrist

I occasionally race my dad's sv650 and that bike is so much fun to race
My R1 is full-time p's and q's, but with the sv, I have a lot more mental RAM to work on things

Ultimately its your call, but don't let your ego paint you into a corner.....
Steve #176

www.patriotracing.us
Making a difference through motorsports.

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EX_#76

#7
Quote from: Super Dave on October 06, 2008, 08:06:46 AM
What kind of tire budget do you have?  Honestly, a ZX10R ridden well can trash tires in a matter of a few laps.  A 600 is a better choice, and an SV650 is an outstanding choice.



Dave, You now have to recommend riding a Buell exclusively, or you will be ostracized from the Milwaukee iron gang, possibly beaten with chains.  Cook will probably hold you down while PJ beats you to a pulp with your own drive belt that he tore off of your bike with his bare hands!!!  These guys are closet nut cases!!  (as opposed to you who is an open nut case) They hold a calm demeanor in public knowing that they can be rid themselves of their sadistic tendencies by inflicting pain to those who refuse to conform.  Join the collective or else!!! I am worried for your own safety!!!  Wait Wait Wait, I've got an idea; you could change your avitar to take on a new identity!!!  Ya ya that'll work, they will never find you, Hell I'm not even sure I know who you are right now!!!

Man, I have got to stay away from the Red Bull in the morning.  Help Help, I cant seem to stop typing.

You crazy Buel guys stay away!!!  I packen heat, I'm not goen down without taken one of you with me.

Sorry guys I am not sure where all of that came from.  I have gotta go.  Got and appointment with my therapist.



Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

Super Dave

LOL!

See, you walked into my trap...

Everything is going according to my plan...



The Buell is an option for lightweight.  The chassis rocks, there are some "factory race parts" available at retail plus tax through your local H-D/Buell dealer that are a lot less than dealer cost for some comparable parts for SV's, etc.

Then we can talk about contingency even for amateurs from Buell.  I might not completely agree with it, but I enjoy Buell's commitment to their product.  Yeah, you will buy some T27 torx bits and some extra tools that you don't have now with metric bikes, but it hasn't been a bad package.

I still have belt drive and the oil that came with my salvage bike. 



That make you feel better, Guy?  I'm going to talk to my wife for my daily therapy.  :D
Super Dave

r1owner

Yeah, if you're in the MW, the Buell gang is a good bunch of guys to hang around.

They even knew what size socket (and loaned it to me) at BHF for the front axle on my R6! :thumb:

funsizeracing

Quote from: Super Dave on October 06, 2008, 08:06:46 AM
What kind of tire budget do you have?  Honestly, a ZX10R ridden well can trash tires in a matter of a few laps.  A 600 is a better choice, and an SV650 is an outstanding choice.




I know where to find an outstanding SV650 for sale with TONS of spares.
Becka
CMRA EX #126
TipToes and TonkaTrucks Mini Endurance #75
CCS EX #126
www.caferacerinc.com
R&R Tool & Die Co.
www.ducatiomaha.com

Super Dave

Quote from: r1owner on October 06, 2008, 11:57:37 AM
They even knew what size socket (and loaned it to me) at BHF for the front axle on my R6! :thumb:
That was just lucky as the R6 axle bolt is the same size as the Buell front axle tool...LOL!
Super Dave

Super Dave

Quote from: funsizeracing on October 06, 2008, 12:07:00 PM
I know where to find an outstanding SV650 for sale with TONS of spares.
How many toes for that one? 

And you should put up a shameless link at least...or pics...



Super Dave

funsizeracing

Quote from: Super Dave on October 06, 2008, 12:20:44 PM
How many toes for that one? 

And you should put up a shameless link at least...or pics...





I haven't gotten that far yet.  Still working on my sales pitch.  I'm thinking something like "lightly used, female owned, only ride on weekends"
Becka
CMRA EX #126
TipToes and TonkaTrucks Mini Endurance #75
CCS EX #126
www.caferacerinc.com
R&R Tool & Die Co.
www.ducatiomaha.com

r1owner


Burt Munro

#15
 Becka,

Here's the perfect place for you to list it for sale............

http://www.littlepeoplechat.com/
Founding member of the 10,000+ smite club.  Ask me how you can join!

LilJayRR

Quote from: shadowsprint on October 05, 2008, 11:43:18 PM
the reason i want to use my bike is because when i was loading it into the back of the pickup a few weeks ago, the ramp I bought from lowes broke and the bike fell, landing on concrete and doing $7900 in damage.  Instead of spending all the money to bring it back to stock, I would much rather just buy a race body kit, strip it down, and put the extra money into performance parts and spares to go racing.  After racing my whole life, I feel confident that I can handle it on the track after plenty of acclimation, I just didn't want to be the only guy to ever show up for the races for the first time with a 1000cc bike and have people look at me like an A-hole.

My two cents would be to sell the 10 (or keep it as a street bike) and buy a smaller bike for your first year of racing. There are guys that start out on 1000's and do OK, but to me it just comes down to a cost factor. Its like Dave said, if you are able to ride a 1000 fast your tire budget will be pretty high compared to a smaller bike. Tires for me are the single biggest cost for a race weekend. I usually do 1 set per weekend for 4 races (GTO,GTU, and 2 sprints) and I will usually do practice on them the next weekend before buying new tires for the races. I figure $900 ($200 in entry fee's + $200 in gas + $100 food/drink + $400 for tires) for an average race weekend. My first year racing I could do 8 or 9 races plus practice on a set of tires. A couple of seconds faster per lap really does cause alot more tire wear, so as your lap times come down, your tire bill goes up.

I would buy a 600 for you and a SV for the wife, and go have some fun! Or maybe a nice matched set of SV's. Heck if you find out that you can handle the 10 you could always get one for the next year. I would hate to get out there and no be able to have as much fun due to the cost factor of a 1000 over a 600. Time in the seat is key to getting faster as a AM, the more you get the faster you will become. That $7900 would probably just about cover the cost of two decent used race bikes.

Just MHO
Jason Gibbens
Expert #62 Mid-Atlantic
2007 GTU Team Challenge Champions!
2009 ZX6R RnR Cycles, Repsol, Dunlop, Woodcraft

dylanfan53

 :lmao:
Quote from: EX_#76 on October 06, 2008, 10:04:25 AM
Man, I have got to stay away from the Red Buell in the morning.

Guy, fixed it for ya...

and Dave, didn't they tell you your Buell contingency check is automatically redistributed prorata to other Buell racers if you recommend another bike??  You can make the check out to me...

P.S. Pay no attention to the avatar.  That's my rain bike.



Don Cook
CCS #53

Burt Munro

Quote from: dylanfan53 on October 06, 2008, 07:59:46 PM
P.S. Pay no attention to the avatar.  That's my rain bike.



But Don, you told me you never ride in the rain anymore???
Founding member of the 10,000+ smite club.  Ask me how you can join!

dylanfan53

I only prereg for the sunny races.  It's so relaxing to snooze in the trailer while others are swapping to rains during the 10 minute call...  :sleeping2:
Don Cook
CCS #53

Super Dave

Quote from: dylanfan53 on October 06, 2008, 07:59:46 PM
and Dave, didn't they tell you your Buell contingency check is automatically redistributed prorata to other Buell racers if you recommend another bike??  You can make the check out to me...
LOL!  Wasn't that what I did in Thunderbike? 
Super Dave

shadowsprint

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.  I definitely appreciate the ego comment.  Thats the reason I wanted to ask the question.  I didn't want to make the assumption that I could handle the 10, I definitely want to make a good decision, have fun, and meet new people.  The racing that I'm coming from is so serious and competitive that rfiendships are certainly never gained, only destroyed. lol.  It's very cut throat.  I guess 850 hp in a 1200 pound car going for $70,000 that can go out the window in a split sec will do that.  As far as the money, Im not too worried about the tire bills.  I still have sponsors from my sprint car racing, so I at least have a place to start. To whomever was doubting the $7900 in damage, just wanted to let you know that I didn't come up with that number, the insurance company did.  The entire body was busted as well as part of the exhaust, the LF caliper, left side grip and controls and the fuel tank took a nasty hit.  If they had given me the 7900 id buy a couple bikes, but it made more sense to take the buy back option, pay off the bike loan and buy back the bike for a few sheckles and fix the bike myself, especially since it has less than 1000 miles on it.  As far as that goes, I need some advice on race body makers.  I have read up a bit on OPP, skarkskinz, maier, and one other i cant remember.  Could really use some input.  I see OPP offers a full carbon fiber body, but the price seems a bit steep!  I do want quelity, but would like to find it at a reasonable price if there is such a thing.  As far as where I will be riding, it all depends on if we stay here in SD or if this house sells then we are plannign to move to colorado.  So im thinking the great plains and or midwest regions.  Again, thanks everyone.

Super Dave

Carbon fiber bodies aren't necessary.  Just go with fiberglass.  I had a couple of pieces from OPP, and it was nice.  Sharskinz makes very, very good stuff.  Additionally, I have to say that the Armour Bodies stuff is very, very good too.  You can get that through http://www.cfm-woodcraft.com in addition to all the stuff that Woodcraft makes.  I don't think there is anything that Woodcraft has that isn't just great.  Good family too. 

There are now some Chinese knock offs for fiberglass bodies, and, honestly, it isn't awful for the price.  You can get three sets for the price of some singular sets.  Makes it easy to swap pieces back and forth if you have damage from a crash or just time on track.  Might be a little brittle, but not a terrible option sometimes.  Some sets won't mount up well because of too much shrinkage from the materials used, etc.

Armour Bodies are actually made in the East now, but the standards by which they are made is by the guy that originally made them in Canada.  So, it's retained a lot of the quality and flexibility that he developed for his product, but at a lower price point. 

Hopefully, that will give you some ideas...
Super Dave

EX_#76

Quote from: dylanfan53 on October 06, 2008, 07:59:46 PM
:lmao:
Guy, fixed it for ya...

and Dave, didn't they tell you your Buell contingency check is automatically redistributed prorata to other Buell racers if you recommend another bike??  You can make the check out to me...

P.S. Pay no attention to the avatar.  That's my rain bike.





Face it Don, you want to come back to the light.  That avatar is just your homage to the good old days.  Those Buell guys are just to tough to hang out with.
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

EX_#76

Quote from: Super Dave on October 06, 2008, 10:21:12 AM


That make you feel better, Guy?  I'm going to talk to my wife for my daily therapy.  :D

I have time scheduled with your wife too (LOL)
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

Eye-p

Quote from: Super Dave on October 08, 2008, 10:08:40 AM
Additionally, I have to say that the Armour Bodies stuff is very, very good too.  You can get that through http://www.cfm-woodcraft.com in addition to all the stuff that Woodcraft makes.  I don't think there is anything that Woodcraft has that isn't just great.  Good family too. 

Armour Bodies are actually made in the East now, but the standards by which they are made is by the guy that originally made them in Canada.  So, it's retained a lot of the quality and flexibility that he developed for his product, but at a lower price point. 


Armour Bodies are no longer made in Canada?
Jason Levitt
Full Spectrum Power
www.speed-cell.com

Super Dave

Quote from: Eye-p on October 08, 2008, 11:38:23 AM
Armour Bodies are no longer made in Canada?
Correct.  I think it might have been two years of production in the East.  Can't remember which place they are in, but the owner and his son travel back and forth for extended periods.  They are paying their people more, and, as a result, they have less turn over and they haven't had quality issues, that I know of.  I had a set in 2003, then I had some this year, 2008.  Both were very good, well, outstanding.
Super Dave

Ridgeway

I agree that the Armour Bodies stuff is A+ quality.  They actually have two different price points, and I believe Woodcraft has dealt mostly with the lower-cost version so far, which is what I've got.  I'd put it on par with Sharkskinz.  I'd like to see a set of the premium AB stuff.  I bet it's really nice.
CCS Midwest EX #18
07 GSX-R600
03 SV650s

MELK-MAN

#28
as stated above, i would look at getting a good race ready 1 season or so old 600cc bike. You will spend a BUNCH of time and money sorting out a street bike that you then convert. Suspension is not just a "bolt on and go" item. You have to dial it in a bit, get the geometry in the ball park, etc. Fitting bodywork is not alot of fun, and putting all the other "stuff" on takes time (clip ons, rearsets, 520 chains, etc).
After 6 seaons of racing, im going back to buying good national level bikes that are a season old rather than buy new bikes and prep em like i did a couple seasons ago. Took 3-6 months to get em totally sorted.
Also.. riding a 600 initially will potentially make you a better rider. The big bike you tend to rely on twisting the throttle to make up for poor corner entry. Not to say riders starting out on 1k bikes don't get better.. just i think riding a 600 is better for learning initially.
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
Pro Flow Tech Performance Fuel Injector Service
MICHELIN, EBC, Silkolene, JenningsGP, Engine Ice

dylanfan53

+1 on the Armor bodies and Woodcraft-CFM.  I mounted a set on a GSXR600 a couple weeks ago and it was a whole lot easier than anything I've mounted before.  I also decided to crash test them and they crash pretty well.  I'd suggest doing that before you get them painted. 

Now I get to see how well they accept a fiberglass repair job.

I also suggest checking out Woodcraft-CFM's scratch and dent section on Ebay (you can access it through their website).  I got an engine case cover for 25% less than retail and I couldn't even find a nick on it.  (Before I put that through the crash test, that is.)

Finally, I think you'll learn more, faster about suspension on a 600 jap bike of your favorite flavor with a fully adjustable suspension than on an SV with damper rod forks, IMHO and all that.  Of course, Buells already come with a fully adjustable suspension if you're headed for the lightweight classes...

Don Cook
CCS #53

motomaniac

Buy back the 10, sell it for what you can get out of it (part it out?).  Buy any newer used 600cc inline four and start riding.  Yes a used racebike can give you a head start...  but putting the bike together yourself will teach you a lot about the bike itself and how to work on it yourself.  Knowing how to work on your own bike can be a big plus and help you to learn how to set things up.   Assembling the parts yourself will help you build relationships with companys.  And ask lots of questions along the way.   Racing is racing.

As for your wifes bike, get two of the same bikes, that way you can swap parts if needed and setup on both bikes should be similar in the end.  (instant spare parts)
Ex#61

shadowsprint

I have a mechanical background so I would prefer too build a bike myself, but I do recognize that there are deals out there that beats doing it yourself.  Ive read on a number of places how the 07 zx10r is such an awesome race bike, but also the contrary.  Whats the basis behind the negative views?  I have a lot of experience with engine, chassis and suspension setups, but not in regards to sport bikes.  Can anyone offer a resource on how to get started with the suspension.  When I was racing sprint cars there werea  few books that were invaluable for teaching setup baselines,  tweaks,  upgrades, etc.  thththththanks folks!

Super Dave

Well, there's not much that can help you with bikes.  Occasionally, there are some one liners out there about what the swingarm angle or trail should be, but that never takes into account the actual cg location on the bike.  Next throw on a rider that weighs probably close to 40% as much as the bike, or more or less, and all him to move around thus changing the combined cg.

Generally, every year or two, the engine and chassis change so that often very little can be exchanged between the differing models.  These are ultimately street bikes and not race bikes in racing chassis with racing engines.  There's things there that just sometimes a struggle.

Basic chassis set up is to get the correct spring rate front and rear for what you're doing (racing) for your weight.  If you want to be really trick,  get some extra front and rear springs so that you can experiment for different conditions (rain) or the grippiness or lack of grip at certain tracks.

Geometry is a key issue, and experience is usually a better determination of where to go.  I've used http://www.4and6.com with a lot of help even though I do have quite a bit of experience.  Even then, getting it right is often about the large expense of track time and tires, both of which are very pricey.  Hence, it's easier to short cut and talk with Jim at 4&6 for me.

There's been a lot of focus on specifics for bikes at times, as in a 338mm rear shock length for a Suzukikawabunga 600, and it can offer a quick "one liner" opportunity for starting, going to some that have more experience deep inside of racing vs just track days can make a difference in understanding that there might be better opportunities going a different direction...like a shorter shock and a heavier spring.

Engine.  1000's have been spinning the rear tire on the banking at Daytona in 6th gear in stock form for a long time.  Few can get much more out of a 1000 compared to a 600 in lap times. 

Negatives on the 10...  Not a great contingency program compared to Suzuki, so there isn't a lot of racing or club level development happening.  So, the knowledge base is small.  I think their chassis in the 1000 has been kind of a compromise for sometime compared to the Suzuki or the Yamaha.  You're not going to have a lot of people that have any spare parts for you either if you do fall down and need help that weekend.  Look how many privateers, let alone B teams, have 1000cc Kawasaki's on the grid at AMA races. 

I've bought a lot of books on some of the topics you're looking for, but few have offered me much more than a kernel of what I wanted, especially from actually going out and competing at a very high level.  That usually shakes you down quicker. 

Keep it simple is going to be valuable.  Tires, brake pads, steel braided lines, springs for a start front and rear and probably a replacement rear shock and potentially valving changes on the Kawasaki forks, bodywork, and sprockets along with safety wiring should be a really good start.

Super Dave

Super Dave

You're mechanically inclined...

You can install the shock and do most things I listed.  I can do my own fork work, but it's cheaper for me to give it to someone that knows better what they are doing rather than me making a little mistake that costs me valuable time at the track.  I can't buy that back.  Once I'm at the track, I want to sort out how the bike feels, make adjustments to preload, dampening, gearing, and going fast.  Pulling a fork down between sessions during a club race isn't going to allow one to focus on what one needs to focus on.
Super Dave