war in Iraq

[the_weggie_man]

I support President Bush in whatever he feels is necessary to complete the job of ousting "The Butcher of Baghdad".

I only hope they go in and get out quickly and not keep our troops over there for a lengthy occupation.
To do that will mean a lot of our soldiers dying at the hands of terrorists after the "war" is over.

This war will hit close to home as my wife is a rating specialist for the Veteran's Administration (she determines what percentage of disability the vet has suffered for purposes of the vet collecting disability benefits) and she will be working with the files of the dead and wounded from this conflict. As well as all the Gulf War, Vietnam, Korea and WWII vets she handles now. There are days that really take a toll on her psyche from dealing with some very tragically wounded soldiers. Even though she deals with the tragedy of war she still supports the U.S right to protect it's citizens and the rest of the world from tyrants like Hussein.

I come from a family of veterans(Dad-WWII, brother-Vietnam, me-Vietnam era but served in Korea) we all proudly served our country with no regrets.

God Bless all the troops and I hope they are home and safe soon.

[DiDiMaO]

Trey,
     I understand your thinking, so my question to you is - Are you ready to join up?  Words are easy to say.  But you have that freedom to say what you feel as everyone does on this thread.  Just keep in mind FREEDOM is not free.

     There are thousand of men and women who protect our freedoms everday.  Most people don't take the time to think about them.  I support any action that the Commander in Chief takes for I don't have that luxtury.  I've been serving in the United States Navy now for 13 years.  My first tour of duty with the Marines in an infantry Battalion during Desert Shield/Storm.  War is not glamorious, but sometimes it is necessary.  Watching your fellow Marines die in your arms is not what you think of.  But, this is the price some pay for our country and for other countries.  We are the only world power it seems to me and with that comes alot of responsiblity.  We need to come together as a nation and support our country and its decisions.  You don't have to agree or disagree.  There is a difference.

HM1(FMF) Anthony Lambert
USN   CCS MW AM#131

[OmniGLH]

Trey,
     I understand your thinking, so my question to you is - Are you ready to join up?  Words are easy to say.  But you have that freedom to say what you feel as everyone does on this thread.  Just keep in mind FREEDOM is not free.

I know I wouldn't.  I don't have the nuts to stick my neck out there voluntarily.  Plus I don't deal very well with the kind of authority you have to put up with in the military (people barking orders and all.)  That's why I support our troops.. they're fighting for my arse!

[Pit_Girl]

hmm... this is exactly what i did not want, a political debate.  i was just curious about others opinions.... i didnt think i would get such heated, angry responses.... eesh...you all couldnt just take the innocent little poll could ya  ::) lol

see, super dave and everyone else, i never said war was wrong, i just said that the way we are going about it right now is (IMHO) wrong and undemocratic.  i have no solutions to this, and i never said that i did. but, you know, there has to be a reason why all the other members of the UN besides France, Germany and Russia (since they have "financial stakes" in Saddam) dont support the US (Turkey doesnt really count since they are just cooperating in order to join the UN).

and the funny thing is, i never said anything in my 2nd post about humanitarianism... i was too shocked to even voice any response to trey bone.  i want even gonna touch that with a ten foot pole. but, it is sad that some people can feel like that towards a large group of people who (at least the vast majority) are innocent and just trying to survive. but that's just my $.02.

i'm certainly not out to change any views.  everyone here (including me) is too firm in our beliefs to change them.  i dont have to defend myself here (i do enough of that at home (a stubborn liberal in a conservative household doesnt work out too well)) and neither do you.  so, for now, i think we should agree to disagree, as no one's wiews will change from any of this.  

The other presidents that started wars were Democrats, weren't they?

oh... BTW Super Save, Lincoln was a Republican (the Civil War), McKinley was a Republican ( the Spanish-American War) and so is Mr. Bush Sr. (the Gulf War)

hmmm.... peacenik... i had never thought to call myself that... but if the shoe fits, wear it proudly.  there's no shame in having a different opinion (especially when you can defend yourself).  

well, i think i've caused enough trouble now...

- jen the peacenik

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

i agree that something must be done about Saddam, but the way our president is going about it reminds me of some cheesy cowboy movie.  bush seems to me just to be a pawn in some grand political sceme conjured up by his father and the other republicans. this isnt the humanitarian war that bush is trying to make this out to be.  it's politics, pure and simple.  as for being a pawn, i think Mr. Bushis perfectly happy to be used.  his name gets added to a list of US presidents who started wars, and he gets to play the cowboy, coming out with his guns blazing..just a few months ago, we were all upset about how Saddam wouldnt comply wth the UN  and their policies.  and yet now, when the UN doesnt agree with us or comply with our wishes, we feel that we can go off and do whatever and say "Screw the UN" i dont know why, but i find i problem with that.  if we feel that we can just run around trying to get others to comply with the UN, and when something they decide to do doesnt agree with us  just turn our backs on it, why not leave it entirely?
umm...wow.... yeah, let the flaming begin.... :o

-jen

     I dealt with this subject of Presidents whom have been in office during wars on another message board last year. After some digging I was able to find a website that had all the Presidents divide into groups based on things that happened during their term(s). What I found was that the absolute majority of Presidents that were in office at the time of a war were NOT re-elected! The risk of going to war during a Presidential term is that you almost definately will not be in office next term. Knowing this, a President must be absolutely for sure that he is willing to commit occupational suicide for what ever it is that he wants to fight for.
     So one day your home alone outside in your yard on a beautiful summer day just soaking up the nice day. You notice that your next door neighbor has left their dog outside for the day hooked to the dog run, while they are off at work. You really like this dog and have become quite fond of her because she is so nice, so you decide to go play with her. You play with her for a little bit and then go back to your yard and just keep soaking up the day. A little bit later you noticed a few high school kids walking down the road in front of your neighbors house. When they see your neighbors' dog they stop and turn to go up to her, she's wagging her tail all excited that she has some visitors. As they approach her you notice the one kid pick up a short branch that had fallen out of the tree, now she is really excited cause she gets to go fetch the stick when the boy throws it. The boy gets up to her, curls his arm back with the stick, and swings the stick forward and hits her right in the face with it. His buddies are laughing and cheering him on to do it again so he takes another swing and this time she runs to the other end of her dog run. The kids chase her to the end and one of them grabs her cable, prohibiting her from fleeing, and the other boy begins beating her and kicking her, all to the enjoyment of the kids, as you stand there horrified at what you are seeing. She is yelping in pain and now laying on the ground when one of the kids sees you standing there, all alone, watching them. The kids stop beating her and say to you that if you say anything to anyone, they know where you live and will come back for you! After the kids leave you go over to her, laying on the ground, bleeding badly from the face as she takes her last breaths of air, then she dies right there in front of you. What do you do?
     The U.N. has witnessed the acts of horror that Saddam has done and they still want to continue to look the other way. He has had 12 YEARS to comply, I wouldn't exactly call that jumping into this by the U.S.. We have all heard of the acts Saddam and his followers have done to the innocent and his desires to obtain Nuclear weapons.
     So in both these examples of horrible acts what would you do? Look the other way?

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Here's an answer more in keeping with Pit girl's original question.  Rhiannon, maybe Kevin, Phil Bresnahan the corner worker, and many of my other friends will be going off to war soon.  I absolutely HATE that.  If even one of those precious people is hurt or killed, life will never be the same.  These are some of my very closest friends, and I can't even imagine losing them.  I saw Rhiannon have a very high-speed fall last summer, and I nearly died.  She got up perfectly fine, but I wasn't OK for two days.

So I hate war.  People die; good people on both sides.

This war has to happen.  Saddam's resume reads like he's applying for the job of Adolf Hitler.  He's gotta go.  Last time a guy like him was given too much slack, Europe had to be turned into a smoking hole in the ground to solve the problem.  Twelve years is a long time to disarm.  Instead, he's been rearming and hiding the weapons.  Gosh.  didn't Germany do that after WW1?  We let it go, and what was the result?  WW2.  People who protest the war are obviously blind to this simple bit of history.  Saddam has been doing his thing for so long that he's made it clear he will do what he wants until he dies of old age.  My cousin was at risk in the Gulf War.  I was pissed that we didn't finish the job then.  People have said that the job was to liberate Quaite, and that we accomplished this.  OK, but that's like putting out the flaming curtians but not bothering to unplug the faulty space heater that ignigted them.

Final talley?  I HATE WAR, because it riskes people's lives for bull$#it.  There's not even a trophy involved. ;D  But I think our president is doing the unplesant chores that many others before him have avoided, and that this war is necessary.

Too bad we can't just snipe the bastige, along with his sons, and be done with it.

One last thought.  I was hanging out with Phil the other day, and he casually mentioned that he had willed his ZX11 to me.  How did that make me feel?  He's been my best friend since High School.  Would I take his bike?  Hell yes, if it was the only piece of him that I had left.  But I'd give up motorcycles to not lose him, and anyone who knows me knows what a serious statement that is, coming from me.

[Super Dave]

hmm... this is exactly what i did not want, a political debate.  i was just curious about others opinions.... i didnt think i would get such heated, angry responses.... eesh...you all couldnt just take the innocent little poll could ya  ::) lol

The poll didn't work for me...so...I had to make a statement. ;D

I didn't think anyone was being angry, did you?

[Super Dave]

oh... BTW Super Save, Lincoln was a Republican (the Civil War), McKinley was a Republican ( the Spanish-American War) and so is Mr. Bush Sr. (the Gulf War)

WWI - Wilson

WWII - FDR

Korea - Truman

Vietnam - LBJ

I think that covers the big ones in current history.  ;D

As for this war having to do with politics, I do feel as though that's like comparing law and morality.  There are a whole lot of issues where it is just "right" to do this.  Right for the people of Iraq, right for the Middle east, and right for the safety of the world.  Would you disagree?  

If twelve years of diplomacy isn't enough, how much is?

There are no right or wrong answers, Jen.  We're not baggin' on ya or anything, but...  if you can make a statement, you've got to put some teeth behind it too.  

I was against the Persian Gulf War (did I say that earlier?).  I see no way around this one.  It is the thing to do, and it must be done.

Don't roll over, Jen!

[Super Dave]

i'm certainly not out to change any views.  everyone here (including me) is too firm in our beliefs to change them.  i dont have to defend myself here (i do enough of that at home (a stubborn liberal in a conservative household doesnt work out too well)) and neither do you.  so, for now, i think we should agree to disagree, as no one's wiews will change from any of this.

In politics, in my experience, it is the liberal side that attacks the conservative side, personally.  George Bush is a moron, he can't talk, blah, blah, blah.  But if you bring up the issue of Bill Clinton's documented affairs, his documented pardoning of fellons, etc...suddenly you're attacking him personally.  If it only worked both ways.

No, there is no reason to defend yourself.  We're not attacking you.  We're trying to understand the other side.  Don't open the book to us and show us the chapters' names.  Tell us about what you think.  Feed it to us so we can understand.  I think were making cases.

Would anyone change their mind?  Probably not, but the exchange of information is outstanding.

And besides, this is fun and healthy, right!

[Pit_Girl]

WWI - Wilson
            
           WWII - FDR
            
           Korea - Truman
            
           Vietnam - LB

not to get too specific, but i did say presidents who started wars.... Wilson didnt start WW1, we just joined it a few months before it was over... FDR didnt start WW2, once again, we joined it after it had started.... and Korea was a UN  action, Truman volunteered troops to help... (AP history worked for me! lol ) not to be too specific though.  :)

i agree Super Dave, there is nothing wrong with healthy debate, but this definately was not my intent with the poll ;) the reason i wanted started the poll was that the school i attend is very liberal, having anti-war protest days and after school discussions and debates on this subject, so i just wanted to get some other feedback....

as for Clinton, yes, he ceratinly has his faults, we all do.  I am probably one of the first ones who would tell you that.  after all, he did loose the codes for the nulcear weapons (but it was on the day the monica lewinsky scandal broke, so cut the guy some slack) and he did let Ossama Bin Laden go... but look what he did for our economy... right now, that's more than Mr. Bush can say  :)

dont worry all you guys, i'm not angry... not in the least (and i never have been :) ) actually i'm a little bit amused.... nothing wrong in the least with healthy political debate :)

good luck, safe journey, and godspeed to all the troops.

-jen

[TreyBone]

I have lived in a military town all of my life (Fayetteville NC - Fort Bragg) I have a lot of friends that are over their right now and they still email me frequently. Do i want to volantarily join? NO... do I support our country and our troops YES.  I am sucessful business owner in our community and sell quite a bit of product to the military. I support them, and they support me. Saddam doesn't support $hit to me or america so screw him his govenment.  

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

as for Clinton, yes, he ceratinly has his faults, we all do.  I am probably one of the first ones who would tell you that.  after all, he did loose the codes for the nulcear weapons (but it was on the day the monica lewinsky scandal broke, so cut the guy some slack) and he did let Ossama Bin Laden go... but look what he did for our economy... right now, that's more than Mr. Bush can say  :) -jen

     This subject is so similar to a debate that went on for a while on another message board last summer, so I remember alot of the info that I researched on that debate.
     The problems I see with what you are saying comparing President Bush to former President Clinton (Republican vs. Democrat) are somewhat unbalanced. There are some things that Clinton did to generate an immediate economy boost that he was being told by his advisors was very unwise due to the long term effects of those actions, but he did it anyway to make himself look good then. Back in the middle 90's I remember seeing government analysts on TV talking about how the next President following Clinton (no matter who it was) will be faced with a collapsing economy. Not only did this happen but it happened during the last 2 years of Clintons Presidency, as shown by graphs representing the economy over the last 20 years. If you check you will also find that gas prices were $2+ per gallon during that time and were cut almost in half during the first year of Bush's term.
     Another fact about Clintons economy boosting was that he went on a military reducing spree. In ALL of history no President of the U.S. has ever weekend our military as much as Clinton did (not only the largest dollar amount reduction but also the highest percentage reduction of our militaries size). He closed down 100's of bases around the world and reduced military spending by millions per week, which he bragged about to the American people. What the average U.S. citizen didn't know was that those millions per week averaged out to about a $1.86 savings per worker in the U.S. per week! I saw a program on the Discovery Channel back in the late 90's that was dealing with our militaries current strength. Top official after top official in our military said on that program that because Clinton had weakend our military so much, if we were attacked directly we would not be able to defend ourselves adaquately for any period of time. Some of the very first things Bush did when getting into office were to start the 'Missle Shield' program, increase military spending in order to restrengthen it, and issue everyone an extra tax refund.
     Another little trick Clinton used to make himself look good was to LOWER the length of time you can recieve unemployment benefits (actually cut in half the amount of time you can collect and the total number of times). Unknown to many people is the fact that unemployment #'s are calculated by the actual number of people collecting benefits at that time. Therefore once off unemployment compensation you are no longer statistically considered unemployed. Clinton used this to his advantage by comparing the unemployment #'s during his term to Presidents in the past like Reagan, who at that time had more than twice the length of time worth of unemployed collecting at once.
     After being handed a collapsing economy by Clinton, Bush was also faced with the whole 9-11 tragedy. I can only imagine how Gore would have reacted to those situations and what kind of mess we would truely be in currently had he been President currently.
     I am not angry with you or anything like that, I am just telling the facts as I know them to be. I think debates such as this often times will bring out things on both sides that people previously were unaware of.