T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)

[JonGu]

Wow ok... let me get the straight...

Passing someone on the inside on the brakes is not cool because block passing is too aggressive
Passing someone on the inside when they take a wider line is not cool because stuff passing is too aggressive
Passing someone on the outside on the brakes and then turning in in front of them is not cool because chopping off their front wheel is too aggressive
Passing someone on the outside midcorner is not cool because it forces them to roll off, takes away their drive and is too aggressive
Following someone closely to draft them is not cool because you might crash into them if they mess up

Well, I thought we were racing, but I guess I was wrong. I didn't realize we were trying to follow NESBA's Beginner group passing rules. I'd like to be that nice, but not everyone has the benefit of an extra 25hp over their competition to keep the passing on the straights.

[Noidly1]

Passing in the corners during a race is fine as long as you keep it clean ...

[benprobst]

Passing in the corners during a race is fine as long as you keep it clean ...

thanks for clearing that up.





Ohh, and I think there are 3 kinds of clean passing, CLEAN, clean, and clean. For me, CLEAN is for trackdays, where you dont really trust who you are passing, especially if they are non racers. You know the type, blow bye passes in the braking zones, squaring corners off and coming underneath while the slower rider is headed torwards the curb etc.. Clean is for your every day racing, running rear to mid of the pack at a simple regional. Things may get a little tight here and there, but all in all no one is in too much danger of contact or crashing into someone else. Then there is clean passing which is reserved for front of the pack, making a pass that really matters when you need to make something stick. When your running at the front of the pack, especially when you are down on horsepower, sometimes you just need to stick it under someone to get the pass done. When you have 3 guys running within the same second per lap, super clean stuff isnt always available. Sounds like maybe Jon is pulling some clean passes when clean would do, but all in all its racing not badmitten, and while his stuff sounds agressive, nothing sounds out of place. When you get out of the lw am  and have to deal with the big boys up front, or the big boys coming from behind to get up front you need to be comfortable with stuff you may not think is clean enough.

Anyway, if anyone actually understood that, its my two cents.

[HAWK]

Ben, just one question. How much contact do you consider acceptable? Up front at a regional club race?

[Scotty Ryan]

My view on passing is along these lines: Passing is Passing(Riding in control) - If you T-Bone someone - That isn't passing(not in control) - That's riding like a moran. If you intentionally ride like a moran - You shouldn't be racing....

This is not at all directed toward anyone - I know both Jon and Aaron pretty good - I am just making a generalized statement....

I may look at this passing thing differently then most - If I trust someone that I am racing with - I expect them to pass me close - inside - Outside and if they have been at this sport for a while - they may even do some things that I haven't seen......

Coming from Motocross - I am used to close aggressive passes... I make em' and I hope not to offend anyone - But it is what it is.....

Allot of people get upset with Nate Kern for the passes he makes - and I have raced with Nate and  found nothing that he did uncalled for.... Actually I made some sketchy passes on him - and we are still good friends.....

2 Cents from me - weather you wanted it or not :)

[Farmboy]

Ben, just one question. How much contact do you consider acceptable? Up front at a regional club race?

My 2 cents:

You can contact me all you want, as long as you don't punt me or knock me down. Hell, smack me on the ass as you (try to) go by; we'll have a good laugh about it afterwards.

I've been ass-packed before, and I was pissed as all hell, but it was at a track day, and I was rider coaching to boot. It cost me over 10 grand between lost wages, medical bills, and equipment damages. I was considerably less than pleased, but there is a huge difference between being taken out by an intermediate idiot at a track day and making contact during a race. I know that when I'm out there, I'm out there with one goal; to try and win (hasn't happened yet..) I try to pass nice, and I have some motor, so I'm usually able to do it, but I still have no prob whatsoever showing up at the apex of a slower corner and taking a line. And if someone has the cojones to do the same to me, I usually congratulate them privately, in my helmet, and in person after the race, because that's the whole point, isn't it?

Having said that, I wouldn't be totally thrilled if I were totally steamrolled out there, but it's a risky sport, and I accept those risks. When I'm no longer willing to do so, I'll take up golf. If I ever had (have) an incident with any of you guys, I think I'd have to just chalk it up to good racing. I respect your abilities, but more importantly, I respect your desire to win. I also acknowledge the potential for mistakes and mishaps.I don't know Aaron, but I've known Jon for years, and while he may or may not be pushing a little hard for the overall championship, he's a good guy, and a very good rider. I'd race him anytime, and feel completely comfortable about it. 

Having said all that, best wishes and speedy recovery to both Aaron and Jon.

Oh, and I'm hoping I ride well enough in a few weeks that I'll be so far in the lead I won't even have to worry about you maniacs..

[HAWK]

I have no problem with agressive passes, Jon took my line away a couple times at MAM and I never even gave it a second thought. At RA last weekend however he  came up next to me on the inside on the brakes into 6, He says he thought he was past me (and I believe he thought he was). He then moved over on me to get to the outside to start his turn. I was on the brakes with my rear wheel very light if not off the ground, I couldn't stop any harder and all I had to my right was grass. When he bumped me it put me into a rather nasty weave. If he had simply turned in fron the line he was on when he passed me then everything would have been fine, it was the move to the right when he made contact that was too much. Jon and I had a very calm constructive conversation later and I would like to believe he will be a little more careful next time but I don't think that a pass like that is acceptable.

[Cyklracer]

Wow ok... let me get the straight...

Passing someone on the inside on the brakes is not cool because block passing is too aggressive
Passing someone on the inside when they take a wider line is not cool because stuff passing is too aggressive
Passing someone on the outside on the brakes and then turning in in front of them is not cool because chopping off their front wheel is too aggressive
Passing someone on the outside midcorner is not cool because it forces them to roll off, takes away their drive and is too aggressive

Overall what you're saying is fine, and it's what racing is all about.

The difference comes in whether you put both of you at risk when you use a passing maneuver that's going to bring you into hard contact if the other rider doesn't see you and change their line appropriately, like cutting (not just cutting across) someone's wheel or passing on the inside using a line that puts you right on top of the other rider at the apex.  I don't know of too many people who get stood up at the apex and think of it as a clean race pass.  And maybe I'm misjudging the relative speeds, but to close on someone with enough speed differential to get things cartwheeling like they did seems like something other than aggressive racing.

I've got no issues with close racing and some aggressive leaning on riders (who know one another's race styles), and I've had a couple unintentional contacts in the past myself.  But wreckless aggression as a recurring theme that draws comments and ends with something like this is just unfortunate and unneccesary.

I like Ben's description, and would think clean (no italics) probably does it midpack in a MW race or in a loose 2-rider dice for 3rd in a LW race

But hey, I'm just a slow old guy with too big of a collection of plates and screws in me to have any remaining sense of relativity.

[Farmboy]

I have no problem with agressive passes, Jon took my line away a couple times at MAM and I never even gave it a second thought. At RA last weekend however he  came up next to me on the inside on the brakes into 6, He says he thought he was past me (and I believe he thought he was). He then moved over on me to get to the outside to start his turn. I was on the brakes with my rear wheel very light if not off the ground, I couldn't stop any harder and all I had to my right was grass. When he bumped me it put me into a rather nasty weave. If he had simply turned in fron the line he was on when he passed me then everything would have been fine, it was the move to the right when he made contact that was too much. Jon and I had a very calm constructive conversation later and I would like to believe he will be a little more careful next time but I don't think that a pass like that is acceptable.

Fair enough.

I paid for a Shadow Video @ BHF last fall, and I noticed that a couple of times during the session, I'd outbrake another rider into a corner at what I thought was a fast enough pace, only to then move over into their line (rather a bit too close) to set up for the entry. Never realized it until I saw myself on the vid. Oh well. Still, it's more fun to be dicing it out than riding around alone...

Oh, and my post wasn't directed at you, Paul. Just had to butt in..

[HAWK]

Fair enough.

I paid for a Shadow Video @ BHF last fall, and I noticed that a couple of times during the session, I'd outbrake another rider into a corner at what I thought was a fast enough pace, only to then move over into their line (rather a bit too close) to set up for the entry. Never realized it until I saw myself on the vid. Oh well. Still, it's more fun to be dicing it out than riding around alone...

And that is exactly why I talked to Jon, when it happened I figured he didn't know I was still there. Sometimes we just don't know how close things get so like I said, I want to believe that Jon will take our conversation to heart and not squeeze someone off the track. I think Jon and I are good with how things were left.

[benprobst]

Ben, just one question. How much contact do you consider acceptable? Up front at a regional club race?

In my opinion it depends on where you are on the track and the corner. Lets say we are at blackhawk, going into the kink before the carousel is not a good time to put a knee or elbow or upper fairing under someone. However, at a track like road america, I have no problem putting an elbow or knee or bodywork out on the way into five to let the guy know im taking that spot, i know he will be able to run an outside line through that corner, and if it goes bad for him he will get stuck on the rumble strips and ill put some space on him and he wont be much worse for the wear. And if it really goes bad for him and he gets scared or cant make the corner by his own choice then he has plenty of run off. Last year exiting T5 at road atlanta I actually put my head on a competitors front number plate as he tried to drive me out of the corner, the goal being to spook him juts enough to close the throttle for the instant i needed to get over the wheelie hill first, which gauranteed the drive onto the back straight and hopefully the win. Ive been hit going into plenty of corners and it has never really bothered me much, coming from the dirt that stuff just doesnt get in my head. Hell this past weekend a guy pulled a dive bomb on me on the way into canada corner then just before the apex as I started to pitch it in late he decided he couldnt make the corner, stood it up and took my front axle for a ride on his swingarm. was it a sketchy move? hell yeah, was it unnecesary being the first practice session of the day? sure. But all in all im at the race track running as hard as I can, and if a guy gets past me, he gets past me no matter how he did it, as long as im not on the ground im ok, and if I am then it sucks, but ill get over it. If you have a problem with the way a guy is riding talk to him at the track and you will get a much better response. When I started racing I was on a slow bike, so I did alot of late late brake passing, all in all it was a little too aggressive. My now good buddy Guy Bartz came over and jumped my shit, while I was pissed about it for a while I realized he was probably right and changed the way I ride because of it. My number one rule on the track is that if im going to pull an asshole pass, really stuff someone, or do something of the sort and its not the last lap, I had better be able to get away from them, as in check out and not have to deal with them again. Otherwise your just being a dick pulling stuff pass after stuff pass for a whole race.

[Cyklracer]

Well, I thought we were racing, but I guess I was wrong. I didn't realize we were trying to follow NESBA's Beginner group passing rules. I'd like to be that nice, but not everyone has the benefit of an extra 25hp over their competition to keep the passing on the straights.

Just noticed this, so for the record I don't think that running a top 4 overall lightweight pace at your middleweight track times represents a pace that would have passing only on the straights.  So on my occassion to dice with you when I was dog-shit tired at the end of the day and knew I was way off the pace I decided to not have you stand me up at the apex a third time and let you stay ahead on the straights.  

But, the bike's for sale and that 25hp edge could be all yours for the right price.