Lap Time Results??? Who's in charge?

[Russell2566]

I notice that the lap time software has been broken in a few ways for some time, takes forever to get updated and is low on features...

I am sure who ever is running it has been working hard, but I would love to see something a little more feature rich and user friendly. I've been an RIA developer for 10+ years and I would be more than willing to:

• Help out in any way possible
• Take over
• Create a NEW solution on my own if I can get access to the raw data

I guess I could have gone through official CCS channels first, but it didn't seem like what are currently using is very official anyway...

thanks

[r1owner]

Here's a copy of the file their timing software spits out.

It's tab delimited here (as that's all I can attach to this server).  IRL, the file is a CSV file.

Updating it is totally at CCS's discretion.  Once they have the files, it's a simple process to upload them to the server.

[Russell2566]

Thanks.

The CCS part I was curious about. Obviously at some point a CCS official needs to send these files to someone. Not sure what you know on the subject but is that a pretty week link in the chain? I notice that there are still no times for the previous race at Summit Point Main.

[r1owner]

I think Kevin is the only one that uploads the files. 

Really, there is no reason (as long as the track has internet access) that the times can't be uploaded right after the race.

I should say too that they have to have time at the track.  I know they are very busy there.

Kevin is at their (the workers at the track) discretion as far as them sending the files to him.  Maybe he wants control of the file upload.

[SimplyRed]

Laptimes seem to get uploaded the week after the event (3-4 days).  Links to info on timing/scoring (http://ccsracing.us/TimingandScoring.html) and to laptimes for previous SP round and other races (http://laptimes.dorightsoftware.com/scripts) are located on the left menu of the CCS site main page.

I'd suggest calling or e-mailing CCS directly if you have an approach for improvement.  I'd like to see more features, etc as well.  This has been discussed a number of times over the years from what I've seen.

[r1owner]

Laptimes (for CCS) have only been available for about a year on the web.

If you have any questions feel free to PM me.... I'm the one that wrote that POS that exists currently.

[Burt Munro]

POS   that stands for Professionally Offered Stuff       right, Scott ?     

[superbike2001]

And I am sure you did it for free right? Thats the best kind. I dont really mind it the way it is.

[mikendzel]

The lap times are up for this past weekend at Summit Point.  I think they're wrong though, because it felt like I was going WAY faster than the times show!!!!!  (Kidding obviously, I still suck)

[r1owner]

Oh yeah, for anyone but me, I put in the following code:

laptime =  laptime * 1.15

[kl3640]

First, Kudos to Scott for creating the Lap Times site pro bono.

Second, I inquired with the mfr of the timing system (transponders and software) and their software's next release will include hopefully a feature for real-time posting of results somehow; but don't quote me on that, it's in their plans, but not a definite commitment from what I understand.  There was some discussion with Westhold about some tighter integration with Scott's laptimes site as it currently exists, but the next release of their software will hopefully obviate the need for integration with the extant solution.

[r1owner]

Yes, that's part of the reason I haven't touched the site.  I also have a 17 month old. :)

I wouldn't hold my breath for Westhold to come out with anything new, but they could surprise me.

The reason the links are broken is cause goDaddy installed .NET 3.5 CLR on the hosting machine and I'm assuming the datagridview control that produces that code is not compatiable with 3.5.  The site was developed using the 2.0 framework.

I just haven't had the time with the new child and moving houses this year to take a look at it.

Plus I have a bike with no forks sitting in the garage right now.  It needs new bodywork and a bunch of other stuff... 

[kl3640]

Yes, that's part of the reason I haven't touched the site.  I also have a 17 month old. :)

I wouldn't hold my breath for Westhold to come out with anything new, but they could surprise me.

The reason the links are broken is cause goDaddy installed .NET 3.5 CLR on the hosting machine and I'm assuming the datagridview control that produces that code is not compatiable with 3.5.  The site was developed using the 2.0 framework.

I just haven't had the time with the new child and moving houses this year to take a look at it.

Plus I have a bike with no forks sitting in the garage right now.  It needs new bodywork and a bunch of other stuff... 

I have a Win 2003 Svr R3 VMS, w/SQL Svr Exp and IIS, on to which we can put the 2.0 release of .NET.  I could get a domain to point at it, we'd just need to use a non-std port for the http daemon (which we could put in DNS) and create a unique db instance.  It has plenty of space and bandwidth and two public IP's.  Let me know if you have the time (although a transfer would probably take just as much time as a code update to .NET 3.5 compliance; but at least I could help with the former).

[r1owner]

POS   that stands for Professionally Offered Stuff       right, Scott ?     

Yeah.... uh yeah..... that's it! :)

[BowleroftheYear]

i dont see the amateur middleweight supersport race posted for this past weekend at summit

[r1owner]

If you guys want to see the results, you're going to need to email CCS.  I doubt they read these threads.

[SimplyRed]

First, Kudos to Scott for creating the Lap Times site pro bono.

I second that.  For the longest time, laptimes were not available online.  Now, they're available 2-3 days after an event.  Big step forward - thanks!

[Peter.BoyWonder]

Is it just my browsers or are all of the links on the lap times/results websites blown out? I have to call that javascript function by pasting it in the URL bar of the browser and passing my competition number as an argument. Seems like that is happening in IE 6, 7 and firefox.......or is that what this whole thread is about in the first place? I am a .net guy so I could help some if needed.
-Peter

[Russell2566]

It's an output issue not a browser issue.

I've spoken to Scott briefly and I am going to take a stab at writing a new lap time viewer. I'll have to chat again with Scott about getting old data and I have no idea if CCS would actually upload to a new location, but I'll get something worked out.

I've got certain features I already plan on implementing and Scott made a few good suggestions as well. Feel free to PM me with any suggestions as well. I'm sure it will take me a week or two to even get a Beta out, so be patient with me :) After I get things running as well I'll consider making the app open sourced with Subversion access for anyone who wants to contribute.

[Russell2566]

A few features so far on the top of my list:

• Email notification
• Rider Comparison to your self or any rider
• Trending & Charting
• Data Exporting
• Ability to add your own laptimes from say other practice events or non-ccs to be used in charting
• UI that allows you to more easily see YOUR laptimes
• ...

[Peter.BoyWonder]

A few features so far on the top of my list:

• Email notification
• Rider Comparison to your self or any rider
• Trending & Charting
• Data Exporting
• Ability to add your own laptimes from say other practice events or non-ccs to be used in charting
• UI that allows you to more easily see YOUR laptimes
• ...

All of that would be well above and beyond any of my expectations! I would be happy with a list of lap times for each time that I was on the track! So do I understand correctly that this data comes from a flat file? If so, eeeew.

[Russell2566]

The data comes from a flat file generated by the scoring app, which I'm assuming Scott parses and dumps into MSSQL.

[bel-biv]

Scott - thanks for getting us this far.  It really wasn't long ago that there was nothing available for on-line lap time viewing

Russel - If you are able to implement your planned changes, you will never want for beer following a race day that I attend.

[r1owner]

Yes a flat file!  and ewww!  is correct.  Yes, I parse then import into MSSQL.

In fact, I think that whole Westhold product runs with flat files at the track.

Really IMO, CCS needs to have some way to simply associate a rider to a transponder.  As I understand it (and I could be wrong).  Each weekend, they have to key in something at the track to associate a rider to a transponder.  It would seem to me to be much easier to have a dropdownlist that they simply pick a rider from and then a dropdownlist of transponders.

If they did that, then you could very easily get all your laptimes from all your races ever.  As it is now, if one person keys in 717X one weekend for me, then 717EX the next, there's really no way to get the times from one weekend to the next and know for sure they are for me.

Back when I had time and the drive, I was thinking of implementing this very feature, but it would require some buy in from CCS as they would have to do some maintenance on their end.

But, the benefits are huge, cause then they could easily track a rider and their finishing positions.  Along with that comes.........  DING, DING.... POINTS automatically updated and viewable via the web.

All that said, CCS is doing a kick butt job this year getting results posted.

[r1owner]

Russell, also, getting the length of the track and calculating avg speed would be cool!  :)

[Russell2566]

This data should already be available in the software. I've seen it spit out at the track. Maybe once I get things rolling I'll/we can have a discussion with CCS... I'm sure loads of things are possible...

[Burt Munro]

Scott may very well have already had discussion with Kevin, but I know that one of the big improvements he is still wanting to implement is on-line registration.  I know there was some movement on this last year until it was suspended due to some glitches.

Tying this in with a dropdown list of riders/transmitters would seem to be a logical progression.  The tradeoff on all of this as always is the cost vs. benefit.

For those who have never talked to him, Kevin is a bit of a 'Technology Geek' himself.
(Why do I get the feeling I'm going to pay for that comment at Road America!)

I keed! I keed!

[r1owner]

Haven't talked to him about online registration.  I for one would like to see it.  Is CCS currently working on it with someone?

The problem I see with all these systems really is the lack of integration with some sort of rider database that "drives" all the other disparate systems.

For instance, if I register online, it really should be integrated such that the system knows it was me instead of just a person that registered and requires manual input.  Then from there, laptimes should be able to grab the same id for me and it should flow thru to the accounting system.... how far do you want to go?

It's cool to have all these standalone systems, but it would be awesome for them to all be integrated.  Don't get me wrong, something is better than nothing.

To get one big system running is a relatively big investment in time and energy.

See you at Road America! :)

[Peter.BoyWonder]

Any way I can get a peak at this file? What do you need from me such that I can see one. I might want to write a little something too. If nothing else it is a good programming exercise.
Thanks
-Peter

[r1owner]

It's attached to my 1st reply.

[kl3640]

First, Scott is 100% correct - there is no unique key that is common across all data sets, and there needs to be one, namely, something that can be used to identify riders.  That could then be used as the key for laptimes, registration, etc.  The lack of a database of record, coupled with the lack of a schema to be used in various tables in various db's serving various applications (including defined keys, which would likely be some field of some data type representing riders, would be my guess), prohibits proper integration of all of these extant or prospective systems in a way that allows more features/functionality, ease of implementation for new systems, and that ensures data integrity. 

Second, I suggest that anyone who is considering any undertaking to improve anything to do with laptimes coordinate with Westhold, the company that makes the Timing & Scoring system for several reasons:

1) The output of their software is the input for any other system that will present laptimes, etc.

2) They may already be working on several such features in the next release of their software (in fact, they are working on several new features, some of which have been mentioned/requested in this thread).

3) If they know that a separate project is in the works, then they may be willing to incorporate some features in to their next release to more easily facilitate "downstream" projects.

I know one person there who is integrally involved with their product development effort, and have pointed him to this thread for his information.  If anyone is considering working on any project related to Timing & Scoring, I would highly recommend contacting him first.  Let me know and I'd be glad to make the introductions.

I for one would be glad to be involved or even lead a systems review/overhaul project for CCS to evaluate the state of their data and systems, the data and systems needs, and the creation and implementation of a roadmap for delivering the desired services and underlying platforms - but they have a lot of other things going on with just running CCS, so while they may have the desire, I don't know if they have the time to pay attention to get something like this done, even if all that requires is some oversight and validation of the project's goals.  If started soon it could easily be ready for next season, but mid-season like this they're probably swamped as-is.  We could probably round up a fair amount of volunteer effort (myself for one), and along with the components that Westhold may be delivering with their next software release, my guess would be that the actual financial cost to CCS wouldn't be de minimus, but wouldn't be prohibitive at all.  In fact, the major cost would probably be machine costs (hosted server or VM, etc), which these days are extremely reasonable (especially considering that CCS's data, computing, and bandwidth needs would be relatively small, even for all of the offerings that have been discussed in this thread).

[Peter.BoyWonder]

It's attached to my 1st reply.

That file looks like race results rather than lap times. Am I looking at the wrong one or is there a lap time one as well?

[r1owner]

I like this.... let's get a CCS development team going.  LOL!

Peter, the laptimes are in there.  Below the finishing results... which I don't believe you can count on as correct positions BTW.

[musikkant]

First, of all, thanks to everyone involved in getting the lap times posted online!!  It is a great feature!!

Just one thought--what sort of ID would you guys need to identify each rider over the years?  If a rider for some reason has to change competition number in sequential years (e.g., fail to re-sign in time to get your old number), or if the rider moves up from Amateur to Expert and gets a new number? 

[kl3640]

First, of all, thanks to everyone involved in getting the lap times posted online!!  It is a great feature!!

Just one thought--what sort of ID would you guys need to identify each rider over the years?  If a rider for some reason has to change competition number in sequential years (e.g., fail to re-sign in time to get your old number), or if the rider moves up from Amateur to Expert and gets a new number? 

Scott and I actually had this discussion a few months back with Westhold.

Since CCS uses the last 6 digits of SSN on the riders' race licenses, and that info is requested on entry forms, that's likely the identifier that they use if there is ever any confusion over a rider's identity, and is probably the informal unique key that they use in their own filing system; thus, that would probably serve as a sufficiently unique key for a comprehensive CCS database.

The issue there is privacy, but since people give that # to CCS anyway, and since CCS requires it and uses it anyway, it would be a non-issue so long as that information wasn't actually published or accessible to anyone but the system and just used behind the scenes within the DB.  That would then work and be carried over from season to season, etc, and even if someone had a reason to change their name or SSN, that field could be updated or the old # just used.  I'm sure that they have some process for foreign riders who don't have SS #'s, i.e., some way of assigning a 6-digit # to those riders to be used in lieu of the last 6 digits of an SSN.

Then, if that served as the primary key for a rider info table or tables within a larger rider DB, which would serve as the DB of record, it could then be the foreign key in other tables such as registration, laptimes, etc.  The schema would actually be rather simple since the number of columns and data types would be extremely limited, when you think about all of the info that ever passes between a rider and CCS.  In fact, a single DB for all CCS activities would likely have a fairly non-complex schema, and could serve to populate temporary tables that would be used for things like on-site registration, scoring, etc, where real-time communication to the master DB wouldn't be feasible, or as a redundant solution for when said link fails.

[r1owner]

I would stay away from the SSN only because it is not guaranteed to be unique.  A GUID that is generated either by the database or an application would be a better option I think.  Once you have that number assigned.... it's yours.... if you leave CCS and come back years later, if they still have you in their system, you still have the same GUID.

Only drawback from a programmer perspective is it's a PITA to find any related information for a particular person cause you have to type in a long GUID instead of an integer (assuming you used an identity field for a key).

[kl3640]

I would stay away from the SSN only because it is not guaranteed to be unique.  A GUID that is generated either by the database or an application would be a better option I think.  Once you have that number assigned.... it's yours.... if you leave CCS and come back years later, if they still have you in their system, you still have the same GUID.

Only drawback from a programmer perspective is it's a PITA to find any related information for a particular person cause you have to type in a long GUID instead of an integer (assuming you used an identity field for a key).

That would be fine so long as the datatype for the GUID is sufficiently manageable to allow easy integration with their existing paper-based systems during the transition, and to allow it to be easily placed on race licenses, to have a field on registration and other forms, etc.  Something like a 6-digit INT would be fine, although a change from the existing #'s would have to occur during the license renewal period as a switch during mid-season to different identifiers would be unmanageable since CCS's existing paper-based systems likely rely heavily on the existing key.