Unlimited grand prix payouts

[naya the dingo]

exactly, this argument requires a perspective that ams dont yet have... maybe the question to all the ams w/ their panties in a bunch should be why should they get cash purse money in addition to contingency? why shouldn't the experts who are shelling out serious cash to be competitive and have a higher level of skill/speed get all the purse money? all you ams who think an extra 100 or 200 bucks a weekend makes racing any easier are kidding yourself. for example i spent as much on tires (for hpt) as I won in unlgp for my entire am season (and i podiumed almost every race).

Point taken.  By that same token, what would the extra $100 to $200 do for you?  Little to nothing.  I by no means know everything, but it is the way it is, and if I, by some great miracle, win an UnlGP race, the $200 would come in mighty handy.

[Sobottka]

Point taken.  By that same token, what would the extra $100 to $200 do for you?  Little to nothing.  I by no means know everything, but it is the way it is, and if I, by some great miracle, win an UnlGP race, the $200 would come in mighty handy.

it would make my $2200.00 weekend $2000.00  ...."its the principal smokey" 

Let me ask you "experts" why you feel you should get pay outs and AM shouldn't?  What hard work and money do you put into your racing that is any different then us AM's?  Maybe there is something I missed? 

because we (generally) spend more, risk more, have more skill, have more speed, better racing and take this game a little more seriously.
yes you missed somthing ... expert racing

whats funny is I bet I could hang with most of you so called experts.. :)

i doubt it

[104fahl]

+1   

This is my second year racing as an AM ( did two weekends last year). I don't understand how these AM expect to get paid.  Generally in sports, taking money would violate amateur status.  Even for getting that, why should someone get paid to be the winner of a race when they aren't even close to the fastest in that class that day.  The whole point of the AM class is to provide a place to learn, that's it.  If you feel the need to race for money, then find a way to move up.  Once you can compete with the fastest guys then you deserve to take the money.

   

[Bappe]

Thats what they all say till they hit the EX ranks. Since your so confident maybe you should bump up and show Exs whats up.

You Am's will understand when you get to our shoes.

oK,  I'm game. :)

[MELK-MAN]

This is my second year racing as an AM ( did two weekends last year). I don't understand how these AM expect to get paid.  Generally in sports, taking money would violate amateur status.  Even for getting that, why should someone get paid to be the winner of a race when they aren't even close to the fastest in that class that day.  The whole point of the AM class is to provide a place to learn, that's it.  If you feel the need to race for money, then find a way to move up.  Once you can compete with the fastest guys then you deserve to take the money.

For all you jumping in late in the game on this thread, this post sums up what was said with many more words early on. AM RIDERS SHOULD NOT BE PAID CASH!. You have contingency if you finish in the top 5.. WHY do you need $$? Call me an asshole.. For the guy that pitted "across from me at CMP" .. i guess 4 days at that track giving you endless advice for free, offering help with everything from pressures, to take off advice, etc" goes out the window when i tell someone like you racing nearly your first race you dont deserve CASH money for wins. You are so soon to forget. Gotta love it.. See you in five years.. maybe.

[extrakt0r]

oK,  I'm game. :)

Dude, you were running 55's at HPT. If you raced with the EX's you would get lapped before the end of a GT Race...Play nice Aaron, dont make me own you next track day :)

[naya the dingo]

For all you jumping in late in the game on this thread, this post sums up what was said with many more words early on. AM RIDERS SHOULD NOT BE PAID CASH!. You have contingency if you finish in the top 5.. WHY do you need $$? Call me an asshole.. For the guy that pitted "across from me at CMP" .. i guess 4 days at that track giving you endless advice for free, offering help with everything from pressures, to take off advice, etc" goes out the window when i tell someone like you racing nearly your first race you dont deserve CASH money for wins. You are so soon to forget. Gotta love it.. See you in five years.. maybe.

I do appreciate the help and advice.....and I'll bite my tongue and leave it at that.

[Gixxerblade]

Thats what they all say till they hit the EX ranks. Since your so confident maybe you should bump up and show Exs whats up.

You Am's will understand when you get to our shoes.

I am expert and can barely hang with the experts. 

[kl3640]

I think AM's should stay at trackdays.

Scott, isn't that a yellow plate on your avatar? :)

[104fahl]

Scott, isn't that a yellow plate on your avatar? :)

Looks like it to me.   

[kl3640]

From where does the purse money for the Shootout come?  Does it come from just Expert entries, all entries, or is it from the general CCS FL budget?  Because if EX entries alone are used to pay the EX purse, then AM's have no leg on which to stand.  Ditto if the purse comes from the general CCS budget, as that's HD's call and what he believes is best for the promotion of the CCS FL series.  And if the EX purse money includes $ from AM entries in to that race, then any AM's who are upset about not getting paid equally as EX's for those races should simply not enter that event - after all, we enter so many other races with no possibility of getting paid, so why should this one be any different?  I don't believe that an AM championship in that one class holds any more prestige than some of the other competitive classes, since at the end of the day it is still an AM championship, not an EX championship, and thus has limited prestige anyway!  I've never seen a yellow #1 plate, and the best that can be achieved as an AM is an overall championship in a region, which is limited and fleeting glory at best.  The bottom line is that HD does what he thinks is best to promote the series, and in his judgement, that means a larger purse for EX UNL GP.  If a guy of his brains and experience doesn't know what is required to make a series like this work, then I don't know who does.

And YES, the fast Expert does require more funds to maintain that level of performance.  A part of racing is that equipment does matter, ergo, there is more and better equipment used, which requires more maintenance.  All of that costs dough.  There are also the ancillary costs, such as the travel required to attend all of the events in defense of or chasing a title.  I know very few AM's with on-site mechanics, who have engines refreshed every few weekends, multiple bikes, comprehensive pit setups, etc.  I know very few single-digit EX's who do NOT have those expenses.  Anyone care to guess what Villa spent last year in pursuit of the FL #1?

There are very, very few people who can financially break even club racing, and even fewer still who can make an occupation out of it.  There are people who use it as their proving grounds for bigger and better things, and they spend a LOT of $ in the process.  The point is that we Amateurs aspire to be fast Experts next, not to go straight to AMA.  Fast EX aspire to #1 plates and/or AMA.  There is a level of dedication and investment required to do so that vastly outstrips that required for a simple AM class or overall championship.  If one of us earns the right to compete at that level, then we earn the right to participate in certain other events, such as UNL GP with a cash purse.  Until then, we are working to achieve that level of performance.  There is support available in the way of contingencies (BTW, ever note that contingency payouts are less for AM's than EX's?  Why is that?).  So what is the point of having a purse for AM events?  All it does is to decrease the level of competition at the elite level of club racing.  Having more $ available for the premier EX events allows those guys to have something as a goal that could actually have a material impact on their annual budget, which just might allow them to attain the title and/or next step up that they seek.  Will they break even?  Likely not.  Will they be able to defray their annual costs in a meaningful way that might help them take a championship and possibly go on to the next level?  Quite possibly.  The most it will do for us AM's is maybe help us get to EX a bit more quickly, but even that is doubtful as the bar for getting to EX is set such that a basic level of investment is all that is required, and beyond that the development of skill is the key.

And for those of you who think that the EX's are being arrogant, I don't deny that I have met some arrogant guys in the pits, but I also submit that you don't know the fastest EX's by any means.  By and large the fastest EX's (particularly those who have posted in this thread) are amongst the friendliest, most helpful bunch of riders I've ever met.  Not one of them would deny me a part in a pinch, or would decline to answer a technical question, or wouldn't offer needed advice, even on a first meeting without any previous relationship in place.  There is a very fast guy who was pitted across from me this past weekend, you all know who he is, and he came through HUGE by giving me a part to fix my brakes, which otherwise might have ended my weekend.  There was another fast EX pitted next to me, you all know who he is, who accidentally made contact with me on the way to a victory.  He was so apologetic and willing to take the blame, even though I was just as much at fault as he.  The bottom line is that I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am now without their help, and the help keeps coming, freely.  Several of them have even offered to go riding with me at a track day, to help me learn.  They are an unbelievably awesome bunch of guys on average, so those of you who accuse them of arrogance are doing so without having the slightest inkling about who they are as people.  And I'm not just talking about some quick EX's here - I'm referring to the FASTEST, most experienced guys; names that all of us here would know and respect as riders.  And yet these guys who help out a lowly, slow AM like myself, willingly, in a non-condescending manner, are what you would call "arrogant?"  You don't know these guys at all, and you owe all of them an apology, here and now.

These guys support the sport, but they also support any Amateur who is dedicated and respectful, because such AM's are the future of the sport.  They were there themselves at one time; but the point is that there is very little point to paying purses for Amateur events.  That would basically be rewarding slower riders for not being fast enough to be competitive experts.  The who point is that there are not two series, e.g., one for fast guys and one for slow guys.  There is one series, for accomplished riders, and then there is a mechanism for those of us who aspire to be part of that series.  Thus the title "Amateur."  Really, does anyone get in to this sport with the goal of only remaining an Amateur in mind?  Surely some people are not bothered by being an Amateur for 2 or 3 or more years, but neither do they have any illusions about the role they play in the success of the series.  I for one know that if I can't make EX in a reasonable time, e.g., 1-1 1/2 seasons, then I'm in the wrong sport.  Some people have shorter timeframes, others longer, but again, I doubt that anyone intends to remain an AM indefinitely, never winning races.  If they did, then they'd just be doing trackdays, which lots of people do.

If we AM's didn't have an avenue available to us for eventually being able to compete for purse money, then fine, I would agree that there should be gold at the end of the rainbow for us; however, all we have to do is get to the point where we can compete at that level, and the opportunity will be available to us.  In the meantime, if we don't like it, then all we have to do is chose not to participate in that event and instead participate in the events that don't pay anyway, and in which we have fun, which we do regardless.

In the case where an AM is fast enough to place in UNL GP but is upset that he or she isn't getting paid, then the answer is simple:  you've surely won a crapload of AM events and have a monster Perf Index, so get bumped up to EX.  At that point, you will have earned it.

And before anyone (an AM on the other side of this issue) jumps down my throat about my opinions, know that I am a (slow) Amateur who spends a lot of money to barely finish top 5, and less often than not at that.  In a dozen race weekends I have 2 3rds and 3 5ths.  Every dollar would help, but realistically it's not going to affect my ability to participate in the sport.  For example, the little bit of money I made for finishing 3rd in a recent ASRA event literally represents under 5% of my cost for participating in that event; and that's not even including non-cash costs, like bike wear & tear, etc.  I am fortunately in the position to spend some money to participate in such events; but if I was in a position where a couple of hundred purse bucks would make or break my ability to participate as an AM, where there is really no glory at the end of the road, then why would I even bother participating in this sport?  They few events in which I participate that pay purses to AM's (which only do so because they don't differentiate between EX and AM) I spend the money to enter simply for the fun and experience and to try to improve my skills; but if I didn't, then I'd just participate in the events that cost me less and allow me to get better until such time that, as an EX, I can compete in purse events.  Then I'll be glad that those purses are larger because they money is not spread around for AM events too.  The fast EX's, on the other hand, have expenses that are literally an order of magnitude more than that which is REQUIRED by an AM (not what some AM's spend, but what is REQUIRED to do well as an AM).  For an EX to be elite, he or she MUST spend serious money.  For an AM to be elite as an AM (which is kind of an oxymoron), a lot of money CAN be spend, but doesn't HAVE to be.  End of story.

[r1owner]

Yeah, those were the days.... raking in the contingency AND the $$$.... LOL!

Like Melka said... we were all AM's once!

Personally, I really don't care... I'm out there to have a good time and hopefully have a good race with some people and not get in anyone's way.

I should also say that no one mentioned I was on a Suzuki... please forgive my transgressions....