Tire Warmer Question

[PolishPete]

How quickly do you guys put on your tire warmers after you get off the bike.  Do you take off your gloves/helmet and immediatly throw them on, or do you take your time a little more (take off helmet, gloves, undo top of leathers, unstrap backprotector, then put them on? 

Basically I'm asking, how long will the tires hold the heat.  Do you have to rush to put the warmers on?

Thanks

[HAWK]

The idea is that if you keep the tires warm there is less of the heat cycling that cures the rubber and makes the tires harder. I put the warmers on as quickly as possible but do not turn them on right away, kind of like insulation blankets. Then turn them on for about 20 minutes before your next session (longer if the tires have cooled), you don't want to let the tires sit and bake all day.

[dylanfan53]

I put them on after I get done cussing myself inside my helmet for getting beat by the same people again...

[Sobottka]

gloves and helmet first

[Super Dave]

If I'm racing almost immediately, warmers on and turned on first before the helmet for me.

If not, I still try to get the warmers on as soon as possible to keep the tires happy.  As for hardening?  Mine don't last that long.  They are spent long before.

[HAWK]

Remember, I just ride a little ole SV, I can make my fronts last 3 or 4 weekends and I can easily push a rear for 2 weekends if I need to. All depends on what you ride and how hard you push but they do continue to cure and harden with each use.

[Super Dave]

Ok, someone can't have it both ways.

I post how long a tire lasts on a 600 when someone asks what kind of bike they should start out with, an SV.  Then all the lightweight guys way that they don't get much more life than the 600 guys.

So, either they are full of it or you're leavin' yours on too long.   

[PolishPete]

So what would you guys do if you were in my position.  I really don't ride that hard.  I did maybe 5 trackdays on 1 set of tires (8 sessions a day).  How should I heat/retain heat on them to keep them from hardening and in the best shape? I ride a 600rr btw.

[Super Dave]

What times are you turning?

How good is your medical insurance?

Do you want to go faster?

[HAWK]

Well, I know that the front DOT on my SV has 5 trackdays on it and it still has some life left in it. Rears I'm a little harder on but nowhere near as hard as a 600. We'll see how that changes when I get the superbike motor done.

As Dave mentioned, without laptimes or tire types Pete it's hard to say. Also the type of tire makes a difference too, if you are using race compounds they will start to suffer from heat cycles sooner than say a pilot power but then you really don't need warmers on a pilot power either. As I mentioned if you are doing a track day then I would recommend putting the warmers on as quickly as possible and if it is 40 min to your next session then turn them on 20 min before you go out.

Dave, I think made a comment that LW would start matching the 600 tire budget if we start seeing 125 HP LW bikes, kind of trying to make the point that LW could start to get as expensive as MW if some trends continue but that really doesn't apply here.

[PolishPete]

What times are you turning?

How good is your medical insurance?

Do you want to go faster?

1.  Not that great times.  Don't know, but I did just buy a lap timer, so I'll keep you informed.  NESBA Int. pace.
2.  Good insurance.  I prefer not to use it.
3. Of course I want to go faster!!

Now how can I use this info to answer my question?

[Super Dave]

Buy tires more often.

Everything else just covers your risk for what you do.

[r1owner]

I agree with Dave.. Why risk it?  ~350 for a set of tires is a lot cheaper than a couple of weeks in a hospital and all the costs associated with fixing the bike.

I usually put mine on as soon as I remember after taking my helmet and gloves off, which can range from 1 minute to 15 depending on how tired/pissed I am.

Whatever you do, don't forget to turn them off when you remove them! 

[Super Dave]

The new Woodcraft warmers have some kind of system that will shut off the warmer when it's taken off.  That will be very cool.

[wolf44]

Pete are you running street tires or race tires?

[r1owner]

The new Woodcraft warmers have some kind of system that will shut off the warmer when it's taken off.  That will be very cool.

Yeah, I saw that... very nice!  I wasted a set of Chickenhawks at RA this summer... :(  They're in for repair right now.

The PD tirewarmers had an option to shut off when removed to IIRC.  Shame that dude went out of business.

[clutch]

I rode a sv for 3 years.  I dont see where the tires last "that much" longer than 600's.  I couldnt see using a rear for 2 race weekends running up front.  I primarily race wera, so I would run 3 sprints on a rear and the next round I would use it for the solo race or practice.  You gotta remember that the LW bikes make up all their time in the corners, so basically as soon as that thing is turned in you have to hamer the gas, smoothly but FAST.  The tires are getting abused. I would never think of running a rear for two "full" weekends.  Then again, I would rather be safe than sorry like dave said and know that I have good grip under me.

As for the Woodcraft Warmers, got mine the other day.  Very nice.  The cover the tire better than any I have seen.  They have the thermostat built in on the front of the warmer and you select 120, 140, 160 or 180.  They have a cord that needs to be connected once the warmers are wrapped around the tire and plugged in so  they turn on.  You have to unplug this before taking the warmer off, cutting the power.  Ensures that they dont stay on, plus you dont have to unplug them from the electric source.

[PolishPete]

I'm using Pilot Powers.  And after 5 track days, I think I could get another 3 or 4 out of them.  They really do not looks abused at all yet.  That's why I'm worried about them drying up or cracking from the heat cycles because they're being used so long.  I really don't push it in the corners.  Like I stated in other corners, I like to take things slow and slowly speed up with each lap...so I've been "learning" this sport for some time.

[HAWK]

Pilot powers will last a long time, also they don't need as much heat to work as a race compound. I would be careful about using warmers on these tires, they really don't like to be as hot as most warmers will get them.

[benprobst]

Yeah, no tire warmers on pilot powers. They will actually be worse for the first 3 or 4 laps until they cool down to their operating temperature from the tire warmer temp.

[RSimmons]

Yeah, no tire warmers on pilot powers. They will actually be worse for the first 3 or 4 laps until they cool down to their operating temperature from the tire warmer temp.

If you've got the fancy-pants warmers with adjustable settings this is less of an issue. IIRC, the optimum temp for the Pilot Powers is 150-160. I think the Chicken Hawk Pole Position 'med' setting is 155. The digital DMPs and the various warmers that are the same with different branding can be set there.

But you're right about the standard warmers that run at 180ish: its not good to cook Pilot powers at that temp for any length of time.

[PolishPete]

I have the T2 warmers, with the adjustable setting.  So I should be ok though using them around 150-160?

[RSimmons]

I have the T2 warmers, with the adjustable setting.  So I should be ok though using them around 150-160?

Probably, but you should double check on that temp. Thats just what I remembered the optimum temp to be, but I'm not 100% sure. I fall on my head alot. :)
In any case, the warmers won't really help that much using Pilot powers. They might alleviate a little bit of cold tearing, and you can ride a little harder a little earlier. If you already have the stuff, might as well use it though.

[roadracer162]

So my question is with all these temp ranges being mentioned, has anyone checked to see if the tires actually get to theses temps? Or is it the termostat that gets to the cut-off temp?

Pete, I would think through reasoning that if you are not pushing the currently mounted tires and they will last 5 track days with much more life, then you aren't pushing the tires to provide sufficient heat. I have done some of my own (the best that I can) scientific method of experimenting on tires and pressures but not temp. I took note of rise in pressures (objective) and also notes on my riding impression (subjective) and also included some lap times to help me figure this thing out. I found that if I didn't push too hard during a session and lap times are down from my baseline tire pressures were also down. I can only presume that tire operating temps are also down in a situation such as this.

Mark

[PolishPete]

Thanks for the scientific data!!  :)  It makes sense.

You guys are right.  I really am not pushing the tires to their limit...or really my limit.  I guess I didn't start to push myself until my last 2 trackdays last season, and once I realized I wasn't near my riding ability/limit...I pushed a little harder, and then winter came.  So I'm really excited to get out their this year to see what I'm really capable of doing.

[Super Dave]

So my question is with all these temp ranges being mentioned, has anyone checked to see if the tires actually get to theses temps? Or is it the termostat that gets to the cut-off temp?

Pete, I would think through reasoning that if you are not pusking the currently mounted tires and they will last 5 track days with much more life, then you aren't pushing the tires to provide sufficient heat. I have done some of my own (the best that I can) scientific method of experimenting on tires and pressures but not temp. I took note of rise in pressures (objective) and also notes on my riding impression (subjective) and also included some lap times to help me figure this thing out. I found that if I didn't push too hard during a session and lap times are down from my baseline tire pressures were also down. I can only presume that tire operating temps are also down in a situation such as this.

Mark

Well, how many things do you want to measure?

Yeah, we have ran warmers, then checked the tire's heat, but the rim has been cool.  Keep it on the warmer and getting the heat into the air in the tire, and into the rim, those are other issues.  A thermostat is still good on a warmer so that it doesn't heat too much.  You know, put the pizza in for 10 minutes at 400 degrees is not the same as 1 minute at 4000 degrees.  At some point, you want the heat to soak in. 

Someone will chime in.

As for a tire on a 600 and running up front.  Who runs a new tire more than sixteen to twenty two laps before calling it done and putting it in the practice pile.  Depending upon how many races you do, one might easily go through four rears and two fronts over two race weekends. 

The Power's are fun tires.  Still not going to last forever.  And they are still more sticky when new. 

[roadracer162]

Pete,

Don't get me wrong, I am not very fast nor am I an expert but for me it makes sense. My advice is to get out there and learn. Don't push too hard at first but work up to it. I took some time for me to realize how much I can push the front and actually sense it. There is so much to learn regarding riding, then there is even more to lean about the bike. Guys like Super Dave can help with the learning process on the set-up in his school. You will get pleanty of advice from many a rider about how to go fast. It all comes down to what you do with it.

Mark

[roadracer162]

Thermostats make a lot of sense to me and your statements are right on. My point is that  oven that you turn the setting to 350 degrees but only to find out that your turkey isn't done because it really is 250 degrees. What I am asking is anyone has actually found the actual temp, if 180 is at the thermostat or the tire and the actual results on the track from that difference.

Mark

[Ducati23]

I use the Woodcraft's with the digital adjustable modules. They work very well. It takes a little time to soak into the wheels. 15 - 20 min gets the tires fully warm, but it takes a bit longer to get the rims warm.  The insulation and covering is a bit thicker than what comes on Chickenhawk/MGP/Suzuka type warmers.

It always seems better to fully warm up the tire before taking to the track, the tires seem to last longer. I always put the warmers back on after returning to the pit but don't plug them in unless I'm going right out again. If there is more than 30 min to the next ride, I wait 'til 30 min before and plug them in.

[clutch]

It should take about 45 min to get the wheel and tire warm.  When you come back in, just set them to 120 to keep the heat in the tires.  It wont hurt, actually helps.

[Scotty Ryan]

When I won a couple championships on an SV650 - I would get about 2 sprint races out of a rear and about 3 out of the front.. I got to the point where I would just swap the front everytime I did the rear.... The wear of the tire also reflected the track conditions that day - the chassis/suspension set up and the track you we were running that weekend.......  Now a days I do run a bit higher front tire temps then most Michelin users...... I run front Power Race's at 165 f front and 170 f rear for the 180 and 180 for the 190..... Length of initial heating depends on the temp outside - usualy 25-30 minutes... If I have a while between races I will just wrap the tires without plugging them in when I get off the track - then plug em in about 20-25 minutes before... I have been told that the tires should be between 160 and 180 for long enough to get the rim itself heated........ Honestly tho - at this point my tires only last me one sprint on the rear and maybe a couple on the front.... But not worth the risk......

[dylanfan53]

Hey you guys with tire rubber temp sensors....I think what Mark is asking is if the tires were warmed to 175degrees on the tire warmers, when you come in from the race and take the rubber temp with a sensor, how warm is the tire?

On the other hand, I'm distracted by the Packers game so maybe that's already been answered.  If so...'scuuse me. 

Go Packers.

[Scotty Ryan]

The only true way to measure the temp of a tire is to use a pyrometer. Which measures the temp of the inner core - not the tire rubber... Everything I have learned and experienced leads me to believe that the carcas of the tire has more of a to do with how the tire feel/works - then the rubber itself....

[Super Dave]

Hey you guys with tire rubber temp sensors....I think what Mark is asking is if the tires were warmed to 175degrees on the tire warmers, when you come in from the race and take the rubber temp with a sensor, how warm is the tire?

On the other hand, I'm distracted by the Packers game so maybe that's already been answered.  If so...'scuuse me. 

Go Packers.

Kind of depends upon the day.  I ran an old tire last year, and we used a spectro graph thingie on it, and I was only at about 100 degrees.  I didn't like the way the front worked.  Usually, seems like 120+ is very normal.  I've seen rears at 163 degrees on cold days working well, and we've seen tires go out after being on warmers at 160+ and coming back in after eight laps in the cold a good deal lower. 

I raced for Avon some time ago, and their target temperature was around 180, but at Daytona I kept reaching 220.  Was a bias ply tire.

[roadracer162]

That's some good stuff guys, thanks. There seems to be so much stuff to learn about tires that usually my 46 year old mind just gets plain worn out. This will be my third year as an Expert but by no means do I have the dillusion that I will be the fast guy. I do however enjoy racing, riding and learning even more about this great sport.

Mark

[Super Dave]

Well, there's one thing that everyone should learn, and it's the one to go to when there's questions:  FRESHER'S FASTER.  Safer too. 

[Hollywood]

The only true way to measure the temp of a tire is to use a pyrometer. Which measures the temp of the inner core - not the tire rubber... Everything I have learned and experienced leads me to believe that the carcas of the tire has more of a to do with how the tire feel/works - then the rubber itself....

+1. The outer carcass doesn't really do it from a heat temp measuring perspective, especially since we can't tell the interior temp of the tire and that makes all the decisions when it comes to tire behavoir under stress. Some freinds of mine that race professionally tend to pull the warmer back and check heat with an IR gun right where the lip of the wheel meets the edge of the tire. The wheel also acts as a giant radiator for any of the heat to be dissapated through.

Just think of this if you are worried about heat cycling your tire too much and having to buy new ones maybe more regularly though. I was told once by an old and crafty racer; it is far less expensive to purchase new rubber than to replace  all of your broken parts after losing traction and answering yourself alone in your helmet. You will have no one to blame but yourself.