Hypothetical question

[harb990]

Who is at fault?  (morally, not legally)

In theory, you have a point of debate, morally. But legally is a different matter.

spyderchick - thats why I responded - the question was "Morally"  and I feel that it was morally the salesman responsibility to direct Bob towards his best interest - whether Bob accepted his advice or not is a whole new can of worms - we can debate this til we die - but in the end it was Bob's fault, he chose, he did, and he died - however there are other things to consider when the moral issue is thrown in.  

just as a bartender may feel morally wrong that he served a guy who got a DWI that same night, and just as I felt bad when my friend left my late nite kegger at my apartment at 6:30am and got a DWI b/c he was 'legally' drunk

When you throw in the moral issue and talk about bartenders - I think they have a legal obligation as well as a moral obligation, not that I necessarily agree - but there have probably been lawsuits against bars where drunks have driven off and killed people - again, I don't necessarily agree that the bar or bartender should be held liable, but I would imagine this has happened in the courts, as sue happy as people are nowadays.

I think we should just all agree that Bob was an idiot and paid the ultimate price for his idiocy and go on from there.  ;D

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

     As someone mentioned earlier, Bob could have been on a much smaller bike and been trying to wrap the speedometer around twice and still killed himself! In theory Bob could have been swayed to purchase a smaller bike by the dealer and still had the same end result.

[OmniGLH]

One thing is for sure.  Bob had some big balls. :o
Would any one object to system like Englands, making it illegal for newbies to buy da big bikes?

Matt

I've thought about that.  I am all for it until I start to think about it in this light:

Who is the government, to tell ME what I am capable, or NOT capable, of doing.  

As a motorcyclist of several years, I can TOTALLY see the benefits of going to a system like Europe.  The current test (I'm speaking of IL since that's where I'm from) is WAY too easy.  Anybody can roll up and take their test on a Nighthawk250 (like I did), get their license, and go out and buy a GSX-R1000.  As any one of us will agree, it takes a bit more skill to handle a GSX-R1000 over a tiny-arse 250 4-stroke.  

Going to a graduated licensing system MAY lower the number of unqualified people from buying bikes that exceed their capabilities or experience level.  It may also just increase the # of "improperly licensed" riders.

However, going to a graduated system, we're sorta-kinda giving up the right to decide for ourselves what we're capable of riding.   :-/

[harb990]

In missouri - you can show up without a bike, take the written portion, go to the license bureau, get your learners permit, go buy what ever you want.

I was riding my first bike (cbr900rr) without a full bike license - the only stipulation - no passengers and stay within 100 miles of home.

Hows that for a great system. :P

[the_weggie_man]

Being a former bike sales person I know the dilema of selling bikes to "not quite ready for prime time riders" True story ..... a customer walks in the door one day all googly eyed :o over a 600 Ninja. We talk and I find out this will be his first bike.  He being rather physically small I figured he was a better candidate for a 250 or 500 Ninja.  Well the guy bought the 250 after much discussion.  Ride it for a year blah, blah, trade it in when ready for a bigger bike, etc.  I was also able to sell him a helmet, jacket,  gloves etc.  He left the store a happy camper promising to practice on side streets,  the whole nine yards.  ::) Well, he rides this thing about 3 weeks, goes out of town with some buddies and realizes this bike won't run with the 900's and 1000's his pals own. He comes back to the store on my day off, talks with a different sales person and promptly
trades the 250 in for a 600.  Two weeks later his buddy comes in and tells me the guy wrapped his new Ninja around a pole. He's in critical in a hospital somewhere.

So, who's at fault? The right wrist that is connected to the weak brain of the guy on the seat. Nobody else. He couldn't hurt himself fast enough on the bike I sold him so ........... ::)

There are many more stories, just ask any bike salesman.

[Bernie]

I'm no stranger to this situation.  I own a gunstore in the Virginia suburbs of Washington DC.  I am proud to sell thousands of firearms a year.  I have a very knowlegeable and professional staff.  We do a fantastic job of training and counseling on everything from safety to selection.  I have stood in front of countless people and told them in plain english when I thought they were making an inappropriate decision.  We have provided firearms education to many, many people.  Then one of those people will do something they were instructed not to do and guess what?  Guys like me still get sued by morons like Mr Hyabusa.  

[OmniGLH]

In missouri - you can show up without a bike, take the written portion, go to the license bureau, get your learners permit, go buy what ever you want.

I was riding my first bike (cbr900rr) without a full bike license - the only stipulation - no passengers and stay within 100 miles of home.

Hows that for a great system. :P

IL is only slightly different.  In IL, you can show up to the DMV, without a bike, take the written test (20 questions, ridiculously easy) and obtain a permit.  Only restrictions on riding with a permit is A) no riding at night, and B) You must be in the presense of a licensed rider at ALL times.  I don't know about the passenger part.

Tho you don't even need a permit to go buy a bike.  You don't need anything.  Some dealers won't let you leave without proof of insurance (typically because it's required of the loan.)  I'd imagine if you paid cash, nobody would ask you for anything except the cash.

And Weggie... man I've heard sooo many stories just like yours.  Most of my friends and family currently (or have in the past) work in bike shops around here.  Some of the stories I've been told are hilarious!

[Decreasing_Dave]

It's no one's fault.  Bob was successfully removed from the gene pool.

RIGHT ON!!!

And now, somehow, I feel safer for it.

I think I'll go run with scizzors. ;D

[Eddie#200]

That's my chicken Dave! ;D

[Decreasing_Dave]

That's my chicken Dave! ;D

LOL

I need somethin' cool to replace the chicken.

What do ya got??

[Super Dave]

The person at fault is the person with the throttle in their hand.

Yes, potentially, the salesman might have some personal moral responsibility in this case.  

But again, doesn't Bob have the moral responsibility to make his own reasaonable choices, right or wrong.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em drink.  

The responsibility must lie in the throttle hand first.  Claiming that someone shouldn't have sold it to you is a cop out.

Drinking...  I think it is the same thing.  Yes, the guy drinking has the primary responsibility to stop at the right time.  Unfortunately, some don't take that responsibility, and now the legal profession has thrown that "moral" and "legal" responsibility to the bar tender/owner.  It is good that a bar tender knows when someone has to be cut off, though...

[OmniGLH]

Drinking...  I think it is the same thing.  Yes, the guy drinking has the primary responsibility to stop at the right time.  Unfortunately, some don't take that responsibility, and now the legal profession has thrown that "moral" and "legal" responsibility to the bar tender/owner.  It is good that a bar tender knows when someone has to be cut off, though...

Scary, isn't it?

My friends and I sometimes joke about being "overserved".  What's sad is that's actually turning out to be legitimate grounds for lawsuits these days...