When more HP= quicker laps.

[chris_chops]

I think all of us at some time have wondered if more HP from our bike would drop our lap times.  I'd like to here testimony from all y'all on your experiences with this subject.  
    To clear things up, stick with testimony regarding additional HP to the same bike without any other major changes to the suspension, geometry, etc.  Somewhat of a "controlled" experiment.
    AND PLEASE, NO THEORIES :-X :-X, let's just look at TESTIMONIES.  Did more power make you faster or not?  Thanks,

Matt

[Speedballer347]

I am an inexperienced racer, so my .02 may not mean squat...but here it is.
2001gsxr600.

Installed Hindle pipe & PC3R....accellerated out of the corners faster and instantly lowered lap times.  Made passing people MUCH easier too.

Friday trackday, 525 binded-up, worn-out chain.
Saturday practice, new 520 chain & sprockets.  Instantly 'felt' the dif, and again accellerated out of the corners faster.

If HP don't matter, why does 'everyone' spend big $$$ on SS motors, valve-jobs, 520's, etc.
Why do some people cheat?
If speed don't matter, why even 'tuck in' behind the fairing?

Also, how many times have ya'll been 'stuck' behind a slightly slower rider w/ a faster bike?
Would you have been 'stuck' if his bike wasn't faster?

IMHO....more HP makes it easier to go faster and especially pass people you are dicing with.

I have had conversations w/ many of the top-placing experts, and they usually say something like "so & so is fast....but his bike is faster than mine.  If mine was as fast, I would have beat so & so"  Considering they are all at about the same skill level, I believe this.

I am sure everyone here is gonna disagree w/ me...and tell me why I am wrong :P

[rick]

Horsepower helps compensate for shortages in your skillset for sure! It'll also help in the start and while passing.

Did my laptimes improve with more horsepower? Hell yes.
Are there people with less horsepower that are still faster than me? Double hell yes.

--
Q: "What's the one thing I can put on my bike that'll make it faster?"
A: "Valentino Rossi"

[DiDiMaO]

I think this a very interesting subject.  Last year I raced a '99 Ducati 900SS in the supertwins class for a few races.  I'm going against guys running RC51's, 996/8's and they are pushing huge horsepower compared to my cheesy 80+.  But, what I noticed was the guys I was dicing with (AMs) weren't any faster in the turns.  They just had more under their butts in the straights and would take off.  This year I decided to run a '02 ZX6R mostly stock.  Has more HP than the Duc, but I miss that torque on the bottom end.  I guess more HP would drop lap times depending on your skill level and experience and the track your racing on.  If you know the track, your bike well and you work on your weakness I believe that would drop your lap times.  Just my $.02

[TZDeSioux]

Horsepower does make you go faster! When I was riding a Honda NSR500V which made roughly 150 horsepower... I would ride my ass off and do 1:59.48's at Assen. Once I got the A-Kit parts from HRC the bike made close to 170 horsepower. I was able to circulate Assen at 1:58.43. Indeed the horsepower made me go faster. That's a second difference folks. Throughout the course of a race, that could mean the difference of 21 seconds.

[Jeff]

The real question is "What's it worth?"

If you've got the cash to build a high HP motor AND tune the chassis/suspension correctly AND attend racing schools AND ride every available track day, etc I'd say by all means Go for it!

However, since most of us are on a budget, you have to evaluate where you're going to get the best bang for your buck.

Last year, I was opposed to dropping $1k on suspension and related suspension tuning.  It's the best money I've ever spent.

That $1k stuffed into 5 more HP wouldn't have done me anything but put me on the ground quicker.

Suspension first
Track time second
Schools third
Engine fourth

Of course, there's little stuff in between those 4 categories, but that's pretty much where my money goes...

[Speedballer347]

Good point about the suspension, but let's remember...the Q was "will more HP make you faster" not suspension vs HP.

I think everyone that 'rolls' upfront (in am/ex repectively) pretty much has their suspension modded and/or sorted out.

Taking a competitively handling bike...all other things being equal...will more HP/accelleration get that bike around the track faster?
I say yes, and don't understand how it couldn't.

[Jeff]

okay.  All other things being equal, increased HP will make you faster to a point.

There will come a point where your times will peak at your abilities and HP will do you no more good.

Problem being, most people's ability is below the HP that their current bike will offer...

[Chef]

okay.  

There will come a point where your times will peak at your abilities and HP will do you no more good.


Problem being, most people's ability is below the HP that their current bike will offer...

think it could be argued that for "everyone"

people's ability is below the HP that their current bike will offer.....

and totaly bike ability ???

 *** but my time improved with HP ****** (f2 to f4, and f4 stock to 'ss' head)

**but as new as i am, i shouldnt speak, cuz my ability is still improving **
<i havent posted a "fast" lap yet>

Ike

[MELK-MAN]

at JenningsGP, Steve Rapp recently set 2 records, 1 on the factory gsxr600, then again on the gsxr1000. 1 second faster with the big bike. However... the record was then lowered AGAIN by 1 second by a 250.. so go figure.. lots of hp can make you faster but the 250 is a small nimble bike. just something for thought..

[Super_KC124]

Horsepower does make you go faster! When I was riding a Honda NSR500V which made roughly 150 horsepower... I would ride my ass off and do 1:59.48's at Assen. Once I got the A-Kit parts from HRC the bike made close to 170 horsepower. I was able to circulate Assen at 1:58.43. Indeed the horsepower made me go faster. That's a second difference folks. Throughout the course of a race, that could mean the difference of 21 seconds.

You are my hero! Unless your talking Moto GP. >:( :P

[chris_chops]

Taking a competitively handling bike...all other things being equal...will more HP/accelleration get that bike around the track faster?
I say yes, and don't understand how it couldn't.

I agree, once you have the bike set and you are comfortable and consistent with it, your lap times should drop with more power.  It might not happen right away.  Keep the testimonies coming everybody, then we can debate theories later.

[oh344ccs]

at JenningsGP, Steve Rapp recently set 2 records, 1 on the factory gsxr600, then again on the gsxr1000. 1 second faster with the big bike. However... the record was then lowered AGAIN by 1 second by a 250.. so go figure.. lots of hp can make you faster but the 250 is a small nimble bike. just something for thought..

I think this is a good point.  The lap record for a 750 SS bike at Mid Ohio is a 1:31.179, For a 600SS it ia a 1:30.419  These both held by top level AMA guys I would think that both had their bikes dialed in chassis wise.  That would lead me to believe the ~10hp difference really doesn't mean that much.  And Mid ohio isn't a tight track where Hp couldn't make a difference. 8)

[DanO966]

Okay I'm kinda in the same boat as Baller'.  I'm rather inexperienced and I really have no idea what the hell I'm doing sometimes...;)
Does hp make you faster not really.  Yeah it may drop you lap times a bit cuz you were able to to get a better drive or a faster top speed.  But lets think about this here.  Does it make you faster?  NO, most of the time it'll slow your corner speed down. Why...cuz you were going that much faster in that straight, NOW you have to slow down that much more and most of the time you slow down too much to make the corner.  At a certain level, hell yes hp makes you faster but you have to be able to use it.  But for most of us here if it helps it's very nominal.  But it also depends on what track you're at.  Road America has 3 long straights where horsepower can be very beneficial.  But on the other hand there are guys going low (even high teens) 20s on a 100-110 horsepower bike when Joe Blow is going 32s on his gixxer 1000.  

I think it's mainly in your head.  You think you have a faster bike so therefore you ride faster.  95% of racing is in your head.  How many people do you know who race and are having a problem with their bike?  They *think* the brakes are not working as good as last weekend.  They *think* the suspension isn't working the same as last year.  Whatever, you get my point.  You could walk up to them and go one click more on their rebound, then click it back to where it was when they were *having problems*.  Send them back out and all of a sudden it's fixed.  That's cuz you convinced them you did something to fix the problem.  But the bike is still the same as it was they just *think* the problem was solved.  Yeah sometimes you do have setup problems and they can slow you down.  But I'm just trying to make a point.  
See what I'm getting at, people (I do too) convince themselves that there is something wrong and that's why they are not riding as fast.  Like I said racing, is a huge mental game with yourself!!  Most of the battle is in your head not with so&so in front of you.  Okay I'm getting off of the subject here...sorry.

Okay back to horsepower talk....Let's say you lost a race cuz your bike wasn't as fast as someone else's coming out of the last turn on the white flag lap.  If you had an extra 5-10 hp you may have been able to hold him(or her) off and you could of won the race right.  Okay let's look at this a bit closer.  That's the easy fix more horsepower right.  But what if you carried more corner speed thru that last turn and so & so wasn't able to catch you by the finish.  You just beat someone with a faster bike than you right?  Also if you carried more corner speed throughout the race, then  so & so wouldn't be there ready to pass you in the last turn.  J

I guess what I'm getting at here if you want to go faster, carry more corner speed.  Because when you carry more corner speed you get a better drive out of the corner, you'll be able to reach a higher speed in that straight, and cuz you're carrying more corner speed you don't have to slow down so much when you enter the next corner.  

Let's look at some of the fast lightweights.  There are some SVs going 17s at BHF.  Last time I checked, your standard SV has a heck of a lot less power than a Gixxer 1000.  

Horsepower may be a quick fix but you have to be able to use it to really go faster.
That's my thought on this.  Sorry I got a little involved in this post...

  

I think everyone that 'rolls' upfront (in am/ex repectively) pretty much has their suspension modded and/or sorted out.

Last year I rode my POS R6  w/ stock suspension.  I didn't even set the sag on it.  
But you can bet your house that this year my bike is going to be sorted out.  I can't afford not to racing up in the expert ranks.  I'm gonna get my arse handed to me...lol  :P

[DanO966]

   AND PLEASE, NO THEORIES :-X :-X, let's just look at TESTIMONIES.  Did more power make you faster or not?  Thanks,

Matt

oops bro,
 that's more of a theory than a testimony ;)

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Every improvement I have ever made to my bike has improved lap times.  Suspension, brakes, or HP, it's all good.  Sure, some people have more than they can use, but some bikes really benefit from a little extra steam.  I started with an EX500, and graduated to an FZR400.  Those bikes don't have much to start with.
My best-ever HP mod was flatslides.  I gained 2 seconds per lap with them.  It was a full spectrum change.  The bike pulled out of the corners so hard that the tire was lighting up.  It also pulled TONS harder on top.  I had to rethink my gearing, because I was suddenly into the limiter 3/4 of the way down each straight.  It took a few weekends to learn how to ride the thing and sort out the jetting and gearing, but once I stopped crashing it, the seconds fell away.
On the other hand, I imagine that adding 10 or 20 horses to a GSXR1000 would probably slow most guys down.  Tires and suspension are definetly where it's at, but I'd never turn down a little extra go...

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

     I started racing in 1996 on the all new '96 GSXR 750. At that time this was the dominate bike on the track and had ample power to make the other guys look like they were missing a spark plug. That year I was one of the only guys that had one in the Midwest region. For both of the years I raced as an amatuer I was using bone stock suspension with no modifications.
     I was defenitely a slow guy my first year, but I had this annoying ability to motor around almost anyone on the straights (most of the time multiple bikes at once), sometimes losing positions in the turns after the straights. The extra horsepower that I had available to me did make my lap times faster than they would have been without the power. But this was not really a true judge of my ability when comparing my lap times to others on slower bikes. For them to do the same lap times as me they had to do alot better in the turns, making them the better riders. While I could get past almost anyone on the straights at that time due to more Hp than the other racers, I lacked in the turns and used the Hp to make up for it. Did this make me the better racer? No. Looking back now the Hp gave me a false sense of achievement when looking at my lap times.
     I think that more Hp will make your lap times faster, but for amatuers it may give them a false sense of achievement when looking at there lap times. I think if you did nothing more than add Hp your lap times may see an immediate improvement, but if your cornering is lacking you'll probably have more of a risk of highsiding due to having to accelerate more than those who carry more speed thru the turns.

[ice]

Power only matters if it can be efficiently transmitted to the road surface.  
Horsepower obviously benefits greatly when the motorcycle is upright an moving down long straights, but extra horsepower can be a bit difficult to manage when trying to accelerate out of a corner at full lean.
Horsepower thus becomes more of a factor at tracks like Road America as the long straights and uphill sections favor strong motors.  I doubt you will ever hear "horsepower doesn't really matter" while racing at Road A.

In my opinion, horsepower is only a bad thing if you can't control it.  It all comes down to throttle control and with a little discipline (practice by doing long wheelies) any additional horsepower that you can get out of a motorcylce will lower your lap times.

[ysr612]

When the gp bikes went to unleaded fuel and there was a drop in hp along with a drop in lap times King Roberts was ask how that could be.

 He said the less hp made the rider keep corner speed and made it easier to control the bike.  He also said that if there are bikes with more hp you need to go to that hp or they kill you coming out of the corners.

in short there is an optimum hp for bike rider combo for lap times and it is diffrent then the optimum for racing.

[james-redsv]

HP only matters on tracks with long straights, like Roebling. On tighter tracks Big HP bikes have a disadvantage. This is my experience, I own a SV650 set up to run in SS class ohlins shock, race tech emulators and springs, I also own a 748 Duc punched out to 800cc. At roebling I can turn a 1.25 on the SV consistantly. On the Duc a 1.22 consistantly, The 3 sec difference is down the front straight, the Duc will top out about 150-155mph, the SV about 130 if I have a tail wind and pray alot. Jennings Gp is a tighter track and a 250 gp bike has the lap record. Just my 2 cents. ;D

[Speedballer347]

For any of my competitors who don't think HP matters.....you don't mind if I pull one of your spark-plug wires, before we pull on the the start-grid, do ya ;D


Heres another personal example Matt:
In March-2002 (sat/early sunday) my 01/600 was making about 105-107HP.  
I feel comfortable dialing in throttle on exit pretty hard, so if I didn't get you on the way in, I was probably gonna get you on the way out.
March-2002(mid-sunday), my frame breaks and motor explodes.

We rebuild the motor, and all of a sudden it's making 92HP ??? (150pounds compression ??? )
Broken steering head meant I had to brake very 'lite/early' and also enter the turns lightly; couldn't stress the front-end.  
So lap times go from 'X' to 'Y'.
OK.

Like I said earlier, one of my strengths (in amateur, anyway) was hard corner exits.  And, the broken steering-head did NOT affect my exits (only affected braking/entrance/corners/bumps).
Running Y lap times dicing w/ other riders running Y lap times, I could not get past on exit.  Even though I was spooling up the rear faster than them, and actually pulling alongside them on exit, as soon as the bikes would go vertical...they would pull back in front.  I am talking about 100HP bone-stock 600's (even a POS F4 did this, and was giving me 'fits' to get around).
Had I had 'normal/equal' (100)HP (and still running identically in the coners/brakes), I would have been able to complete my exit passes on the same riders (running Y lap times)....and my 'near' exit passes show this.
So a disadvantage in HP, kept me from passing on exit, even though I was 'better/faster' on exit.

Maybe jumping from a 600 to a Literbike is one thing, but adding 5-10HP to your rear-wheel cannot hurt your lap times (unless you've got too much HP already)....imho.

[Speedballer347]

and Ice is right about the wheelies (sorry haterz  :P ).
If you can truely 'Balance' a bike on the rear wheel for a great distance....you have as good throttle-control (or better) than any of your competitors.

DanO or Omni...can I get a 'Amen!' ;D

[bfkidd]

I think that having more horsepower than the next guy just makes you a lazy racer. Let's face it, if you pass a guy on the straight, then you aren't going to learn how to get him in a certain corner.

The goal should be to at least have what everyone else has. If your bike is a turd then you probably won't do good. But if your bike is too fast then it is a crutch and you won't learn anything.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

         I was defenitely a slow guy, but I had this annoying ability to motor around almost anyone on the straights (most of the time multiple bikes at once), sometimes losing positions in the turns after the straights. The extra horsepower that I had available to me did make my lap times faster than they would have been without the power. But this was not really a true judge of my ability when comparing my lap times to others on slower bikes. For them to do the same lap times as me they had to do alot better in the turns, making them the better riders. While I could get past almost anyone on the straights at that time due to more Hp than the other racers, I lacked in the turns and used the Hp to make up for it.

As I read this, I keep seeing the # 113 in my mind.  Edgar?  Did you change your login name? ;D

[ecumike]

I don't see how extra HP CAN'T make your laps faster... (I'm a newbie :) )

Whether you're fast in the turns, or you park it, ALL TIHNGS STAYING EQUAL with your extra HP; more HP should give you more speed on the straight, which will result in lower lap times.

Right... I know, I know, hence the request for TESTIMONIALS... like did it really drop your times?... or did it screw up your entry/exit speeds and turn points and thus cause same/higher lap times?

I'll be able to give an actual testimonial after my track day - 3/15

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

As I read this, I keep seeing the # 113 in my mind.  Edgar?  Did you change your login name? ;D

     I use to be # 214 in the MW region. I used that # the first 4 years that I raced.

[DanO966]

DanO or Omni...can I get a 'Amen!' ;D

Wheelies RULE  ;D

[TZDeSioux]

Wheelies RULE  ;D

teach me how to do a willie.

[james-redsv]

Speedballer you are freaking crazy trying to race a bike with a broken steering head. It should not have passed tech either, which you should have done again after a crash. Please dont do this again as you could hurt someone else as well as yourself if your bike suddenly falls apart.  :o

[spyderchick]

 95% of racing is in your head.

<-------look to your left

Racing is mental, and HP is subjective to the track. Why could Roger beat guys on bigger bikes in F40 when he was running a 400cc bike? Why can Rhiannon pass Charlie Buse @ RA  or catch Ed Key on another weekend in the rain?

HP is a number. So is your weight, your sag on your suspension, your lap times, etc., etc., ad nauseum. Numbers are occasionally meaningless.  

yeah, raw horsepower should make a racer go faster. But the part between your ears is what will help you make the best use of it.  

[Speedballer347]

Speedballer you are freaking crazy trying to race a bike with a broken steering head. It should not have passed tech either, which you should have done again after a crash. Please dont do this again as you could hurt someone else as well as yourself if your bike suddenly falls apart.  :o

This is all OLD news.

Bike wasn't crashed!  Steering head exploded in Gateway's chicane/banking.  Bad slide/tankslap/etc...broke some ribs/etc...and recovered it 8)

Tech: Bike passed tech, cause it showed show up w/ profesionally welded frame.  GMD welds them up all the time and they hold.  The guy who welded mine welds aircrafts together, so he is better than GMD....only dif is that my alignment was waaaay off...but my guys welding was superior.  
The welds should have held!!!!

Other than being bent-to-f (from the cracks (40")pulling themselves 1/4" apart), it was solid )or so we thought).  
As we soon found out, hard braking and/or cornering would rebrake all of the welds and create new cracks.  

I knew my frame/geometry was bent nutzo, but was NEVER my intention to show up w/ a cracked frame!!!!
We always thought we had the cracking under control...but even when the welds held, new ones would show up.
Frame was defective/brittle, and it took a couple weekends to figure it out.  Still placed 2-5th on it 8)

No worries!
Cracked frame is gone, and a new one is being asembled.  New motor too ;D

Now, let's get back to the HP/lap-time debate....

[chris_chops]

My own experience deals mostly with lightweight machinery.  On a ducati 750ss, 10 more HP was good for 1.5 seconds at Grattan.  I changed nothing else.  The cases were to old(damn ducatis) to handle the power and cracked one weekend later.      
     Moving along, my old 916 and newer 998, have never had any engine mods.  The 998 still had stock pipes and computer last season.  This is what happens when you can't really afford a ducati.  I don't care who is riding those things, the 916 was slow compared to  any R6 and the 998 could barely get out of Monte Nichols R6's way even when our exit speeds were nearly identical.  I'm trusting Monte's honesty on that, as he came up to me after a race and questioned where the 998's "go juice" went.  I've been told I can corner with the best of CCSMidwest, but I wonder if more power in my 998 will make me faster at the short tracks.  I'll have to see.
     The fact that my bike is a ducati also means it is heavier.  I wonder if I should just put a pipe and computer on it and spend anymore money on weight reduction.  It was approx. 430lbs wet last year.  Monte's bike weighed 370 at the f-usa national.  Any thoughts guys?

Matt
P.s. I'm a big boy at 6' 2" and 185lbs.  I should lose weight as well.

[sdiver68]

185 big?  Hell, I'm 180 at 5'10"

And trust me, no one would call me "big", well, other than my girlf..... well never mind :)

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

P.s. I'm a big boy at 6' 2" and 185lbs.  I should lose weight as well.

     I'm 5' 10" and can only dream of the day I am back down to 185 lbs.! I realize the horsepower loss due to my weight and ultimately it is the cheapest improvement in power you can make (eating less costs you less money and gains power availability - win/win situation).

[Speedballer347]

185-190 @ 5'8", swollen with toXins ::) :P

[TZDeSioux]

6'1  210lbs but 40lbs is from my testicles. I have big grandpa balls.  ;D

[spyderchick]

I thought that was called elephantitis? ;D

[TZDeSioux]

lol... is that what's it's called? hahah I have elephantitis of the nuts bwhahaha  ;D

[spyderchick]

doncha remember those pix from high school? The guy wheelin' 'em around in a wheelbarrow? :o

[TZDeSioux]

doncha remember those pix from high school? The guy wheelin' 'em around in a wheelbarrow? :o

Nope.... I didn't go to a regular school. I went to a school where you train to be a Ninja. :)

[spyderchick]

well now. That would explain alot of things.  :o

[sdiver68]

On the weight issue, it is not nearly as simple as saying 5 lbs ~ 1 hp.  IMHO, the start is the only place where this ratio comes into play in a major way.

For one, lighter weight should theoretically enhance the handling characteristics of the bike, assuming the geometry and weight distribution are optimized.  However, those are big assumptions.

Second, aero drag is a big part of the acceleration equation at racing speeds, I would say more important than weight when speeds average 100 mph.  Granted, smaller riders can get more aerodynamic, usually.

Discussion?

[Super Dave]

I'll weigh in...

HP = quicker laps  Yes, or no.

Well, yes, but not to a big degree.

Larry Denning can go 3/4's of a second faster on his R1 vs his R6 a many "normal" tracks.  But 3/4's of a second sure isn't much for something that makes lets say 25 to 35 more HP with the other things all remaining pretty equal.  

If you go to a bigger track, the difference should be much bigger...

But Eric Bostrom did 1:53's a couple of years ago on his Kaw Supersport 600 and 1:49's on the superbike.  Four seconds as a result of 60HP, slicks, etc. etc. and probably $200,000.  Not a big difference, really.

Now, back to the less experienced guys gaining time from power...

That would be because you are riding with a larger margin of safety.  Your mid corner speed would be lower that lets say Larry Denning, so when you fix your bike (bad chain) or make minor improvments (pipe) you gain some ground in the acceleration/HP department.  That allows you to whack it a bit sooner and get away with it.

But additionally, you've experienced things previously, too...  And that helps...if you learn from it.

What to do?

Jeff's on the right track.  Suspension is key.  But if you don't know squat about it, you need to learn.  Track time is useful IF you know what to change otherwise it is stupid to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.  School...yes, if you can get input other than, "You're doing well out there."  There needs to be on going discussions about changes, ideas, etc.  Ultimately, a school or instructor should have a base of knowledge to help give you some continuting guidance for changes.  And that can come before just adding suspension components.

Now as for personal experiences...

I did a 1:13 at BFR in 2001.  In 2002, I couldn't break into the 13's yet I did have more HP and I noted that the bike accelerated better.  I had my ear/brain/tumor/we don't know thing happening last year though...  So, those things come into play.