Stay AM or petititon for EX?

Started by RSimmons, December 18, 2007, 12:39:48 PM

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Sobottka

 :lmao: :lmao: now that was funny i dont care who you are!!!!
49
Lithium Motorsports
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RSimmons

Quote from: sobottka on December 27, 2007, 08:25:05 PM
how do you go 10% faster than the fastest lap? (or 110% of the fastesrt lap?)

110% of fastest lap. E.g.if the fastest lap was 1:10 (70 sec), the EX cutoff could be 77 sec, or 1:17. the 10% figure is just a round number.


And the trackday comment was pretty darn funny.
MW Am #377

fatboy122

It seems that this is a problem every year..there will always be a fast group of amatuers no matter where they come from..and all the mid pack amatuers will complain that they should be expert riders..i was an outside the top 5 amatuer in 2006, i did a few trackdays over the winter to get better then won a couple races in 2007..now i feel like im ready to be an expert and actually have the experience and knowledge to safely ride with the expert group..

LilJayRR

Quote from: RSimmons on December 27, 2007, 06:36:47 PM
Thank you. I didn't think I would be really sandbagging. I don't have a single win on my record, and only got on the box at Road America.

I know how you feel. I had basically the same question this year. I missed the 400 points by ~70 or so. The best finish I have had was a couple of 5th places. Looking at the bump list and comparing it to the results there are still a few racers that will be faster than I am. There will always be some armatures that come out of no where and do well. That is life, and I still looking forward to another great season!


Hope you all stay safe over the next few weeks/months so I can see all at the track! 
Jason Gibbens
Expert #62 Mid-Atlantic
2007 GTU Team Challenge Champions!
2009 ZX6R RnR Cycles, Repsol, Dunlop, Woodcraft

red900

Quote from: RSimmons on December 27, 2007, 06:36:47 PM
Thank you. I didn't think I would be really sandbagging. I don't have a single win on my record, and only got on the box at Road America.

Thanks to all that responded. I've mulled it over a bit and decided I'll stay where the points say I should: in AM. I'm sure they're will be some good competition in AM, I can think of a few guys that I'll likely be battling with. And actually having a shot at some contingency will keep racing within the budget.

IF it turns out that I end up being 'that guy," I'll petition to move up when/if that happens. I'm not that fast, so I doubt it will be the case.


This thread also had me thinking about an alternate way of classifying riders. What about a 110% rule (number is arbitrary) If a given rider is turning, on average, 110% of the fastest lap, he/she is an expert.
There seems to be a number of advantages to this scheme:
Fast guys coming out of the trackday circuit are placed where they belong in a timely fashion.

less closing speed differentials within AM/EX fields

A larger field of more closely matched competitors for better racing, both for spectators and racers. As it stands, it seems there's overlap. The faster AM are running times that are faster than the slower EXs, thereby spreading the field in both classes. The cutoff percentage could be adjusted to maintain relatively equal numbers of riders in AM and EX to ensure better populated grids.

No incentive to 'sandbag' at the end of the season to avoid 400pt. cutoff (I've seen it done) No racer in his right mind would come out and intentionally ride slow and defeat the purpose of racing. But some racers will not enter races towards the end of the season to preserve yellow plate status.

Allows not-quite-EX-fast riders not be forced into EX by virtue of simply entering races. This would reduce the occurences of the "slow AM>Fast AM>slow EX>still slow EX>quit racing cycle" that is often mentioned.

It would be easy to implement. All this data is currently taken and can be quickly and efficiently managed with something as a simple as an MS Excel macro. I suspect it would lead to more people entering more races, both by reducing the sandbag incentive and making for better/fairer competition. The racers benefit and CCS as a business entity benefits.


This misses one key element.  What actually defines an amateur from an expert?

If it is only lap times then your idea might work, but I think the difference is more than just lap times.  The difference is race craft and race experience, not just lap times. 


Dustin Boyd
Cyclepath Racing LLC
Midwest Race Supplier

r1owner

Maybe CCS should use some other criteria then...  Cause if AM's are finishing top 5 overall, then there are some experts that maybe shouldn't be expert.

RSimmons

Quote from: red900 on December 28, 2007, 08:39:32 AM
This misses one key element.  What actually defines an amateur from an expert?

If it is only lap times then your idea might work, but I think the difference is more than just lap times.  The difference is race craft and race experience, not just lap times. 




Sure, laptimes aren't the only part of it, but I think they're the best proxy we have for those other unquantifiable characteristics. I'm certain that a guy who can run times within 5 or 10% of the fastest guy out there has some idea how to ride a motorcycle in fast paced setting. It isn't like someone gets that quick their first time on a bike or even on the track. They would have some experience. Not only that, the laptimes that would be determinitive would be in a race setting, so that our prospective track day hero would get at least 1-2 rounds of experience at the AM level.

Not only that, those other things aren't really so much germane to classification as they are to winning. Sure, a guy that can run 1:11's might not win because he isn't very keen on the 'race craft' aspect of the game, but he can compete, and he can pickup the racecraft part while getting some real competition.
The flip side is that our 1:11 guy isn't going to pick up much racecraft in the AM ranks by taking the holeshot and leading for 6 laps either. He may win an AM race/championship, but its probably not doing much for his skills, the other riders' skills, or the quality of racing in general.

Laptimes in a race setting implicitly take into account the criteria of racecraft knowledge or race experience knowledge to the extent they matter. One can have all the race experience in the world, but that really doesn't make much difference if they're too slow to compete with their peers. It goes the other way too. One can have no race (per se) experience, but may be much faster to the point where they don't have any real competition within that group. In either case, there is no reason to use experience as a benchmark because using that criteria does nothing to make racing better, and can even make it worse.


QuoteMaybe CCS should use some other criteria then...  Cause if AM's are finishing top 5 overall, then there are some experts that maybe shouldn't be expert.

Personally, I don't think there should be any overlap. There's no reason for it. It makes no sense to have any AM faster than an EX. It makes the distinction worthless, and makes for more spread out, conga line style racing.
MW Am #377

Sobottka

Quote from: RSimmons on December 27, 2007, 09:38:53 PM
110% of fastest lap. E.g.if the fastest lap was 1:10 (70 sec), the EX cutoff could be 77 sec, or 1:17. the 10% figure is just a round number.


And the trackday comment was pretty darn funny.
gotcha... I think am licences should be issued on a provisional basis with regular evaluations so those that are too competitive get bumped. maybe even limit the # of classes an am can enter and offer more to the experts so slower ex's can still have competitive races
49
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Garywc

bump them all up no more sandbaggers
what the hell are you going to do with all those placks anyway?
all those guys that cry they never won a race
i never won a race till i was an expert

but on the other hand you dont want people who just go alot of points by doing alot of races going up to expert when they arent up to speed




CCS/ASRA #77
AMA #776
http://www.eastcoastsupertwins.com
Monmouth Cycles,Woodcraft, bel-ray,AXO

steve p

Rob,  you keep using those big lawyer type words and I am not going to be able to follow this thread.  I mean really proxy, unquantifiable, those books are really starting to get to you eh.
Just messin.  Look forward to seenin ya next year. 
Steve Palella
MW #32
2002 Aprilia RSVR Mille

RSimmons

Quote from: steve p on December 28, 2007, 06:58:32 PM
Rob,  you keep using those big lawyer type words and I am not going to be able to follow this thread.  I mean really proxy, unquantifiable, those books are really starting to get to you eh.
Just messin.  Look forward to seenin ya next year. 

hahaha, yeah they are. I'm told it's all downhill from here. Soon I won't be able to communicate with normal people anymore!
MW Am #377

GSXR RACER MIKE

Quote from: RSimmons on December 28, 2007, 12:02:58 PMPersonally, I don't think there should be any overlap. There's no reason for it. It makes no sense to have any AM faster than an EX. It makes the distinction worthless, and makes for more spread out, conga line style racing.

Ironically this wasn't an issue when Track Days didn't exist because a person learned their 'Racecraft' as they developed their speed instead of getting really fast in a non-race environment then jumping into racing already fast - yet lacking 'Racecraft'. I think this is a large part of the problem today, SOME of the really fast 'new racers' (coming out of Track Days) who work their way into the Expert portion of the field during the combined races are making dangerous passes due to apparent lack of experience/knowledge. This is something I've witnessed extensively over the last several years because even though I've raced since '96 I've been the guy at the back of the Expert pack for quite a while now (I've been at the back because I wasn't spending the money on tires that the fast racers are - I was actually on race tires that had 3 seasons on them, but that's another story).

I'm in a rather unique postion, I'm a former fast guy who hasn't spent the money to go fast for quite a while, so I know what it's like to be in the lead group and doing the passing and at the back of the Experts as well (though I don't get lapped by any of the Experts in a sprint race). The biggest difference I see today is the experience/ability of the racers passing me, in practice I've had people like front running Expert/Pro racer Brian Hall go by me only a foot away and I was comfortable with that because he's smooth and never chops me off. Yet as a great example at Road America this last season I had 5 different Amateur racers pass me in 1 race with passes that each chopped my line so badly I almost plowed into each of them, I ended up stuck racing with 1 of those guys almost the whole race and he almost caused me to crash 4 different times in 1 race!

Actual race experience shows in smoothness, passing ability, and consistency - all of which are things you don't automatically have by just being able to do a certain lap time. The racers I mentioned at the RA event were indeed fast, but their passing ability sucked. I'm in no way saying this is ALL the fast Amateurs, there were some that consistently went by me during the season this year that will make great additions to the Experts in 2008.
Smites are a cowards way of feeling brave!   :jerkoff:
Mike Williams - 2 GSXR 750's
Former MW Region Expert #58
Racing exclusively with CCS since '96
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