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Stay AM or petititon for EX?

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RSimmons

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Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #96 on: December 29, 2007, 05:03:42 pm »
Ironically this wasn't an issue when Track Days didn't exist because a person learned their 'Racecraft' as they developed their speed instead of getting really fast in a non-race environment then jumping into racing already fast - yet lacking 'Racecraft'. I think this is a large part of the problem today, SOME of the really fast 'new racers' (coming out of Track Days) who work their way into the Expert portion of the field during the combined races are making dangerous passes due to apparent lack of experience/knowledge. This is something I've witnessed extensively over the last several years because even though I've raced since '96 I've been the guy at the back of the Expert pack for quite a while now (I've been at the back because I wasn't spending the money on tires that the fast racers are - I was actually on race tires that had 3 seasons on them, but that's another story).

I'm in a rather unique postion, I'm a former fast guy who hasn't spent the money to go fast for quite a while, so I know what it's like to be in the lead group and doing the passing and at the back of the Experts as well (though I don't get lapped by any of the Experts in a sprint race). The biggest difference I see today is the experience/ability of the racers passing me, in practice I've had people like front running Expert/Pro racer Brian Hall go by me only a foot away and I was comfortable with that because he's smooth and never chops me off. Yet as a great example at Road America this last season I had 5 different Amateur racers pass me in 1 race with passes that each chopped my line so badly I almost plowed into each of them, I ended up stuck racing with 1 of those guys almost the whole race and he almost caused me to crash 4 different times in 1 race!

Actual race experience shows in smoothness, passing ability, and consistency - all of which are things you don't automatically have by just being able to do a certain lap time. The racers I mentioned at the RA event were indeed fast, but their passing ability sucked. I'm in no way saying this is ALL the fast Amateurs, there were some that consistently went by me during the season this year that will make great additions to the Experts in 2008.

I was probably in that race. (I raced all of the HW classes that weekend) I don't think I was one of the offenders, since I tend to take a very conservative, almost track-day mentality to passing.  But If so I apologize.
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GSXR RACER MIKE

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Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #97 on: December 29, 2007, 05:14:00 pm »
I was probably in that race. (I raced all of the HW classes that weekend) I don't think I was one of the offenders, since I tend to take a very conservative, almost track-day mentality to passing.  But If so I apologize.

No need to apologize (i'm pretty sure you weren't one of them anyways), racing is racing, I was just trying to provide an example relavent to the current conversation.  :thumb:
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 05:15:48 pm by GSXR RACER MIKE »
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red900

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Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #98 on: December 30, 2007, 12:11:32 am »
I agree with you mike, That is the race experience I am talking about.  That is the difference.  That only comes with race laps...
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Dustin Boyd
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grasshopper

Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #99 on: December 31, 2007, 03:00:41 am »
Race craft and race etiquette isn't only learned at a race school, race event or even track day for that matter. Banging handle bars with your buddies in a corn field or in the dirt goes a long way. For example, Jesse Janisch. He came out as an amatuer road racer and was winning championships flat track racing rite? What else was he supposed to do? If you are a really fast racer (maybe proffessional) in a different form of the sport like flattrack,ice racing/riding, supermoto, or motocross where does that person start out in racing CCS? Seriously... I know some people who are pretty damn good "racers" and never raced CCS.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 03:08:00 am by grasshopper »
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red900

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Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #100 on: January 01, 2008, 01:51:32 am »
So they have raced, then they are learning racecraft. 
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Dustin Boyd
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r1owner

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Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #101 on: January 01, 2008, 11:19:39 am »
I'm confused... I thought by doing trackdays for 3 years, they were learning what they needed to do to race?

Now you're saying they only learn it while racing?
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roadracer162

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Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #102 on: January 01, 2008, 11:59:48 am »
In my opinion based on observation is that the trackday Expert is very different than the Racer Expert. Trackdays are a great place for the rider to learn much of their riding pertaining to the mechanics of the rider and bike. Stuff like tire pressures and suspension settings can make for a vital learning period.

A race Expert posess a different skill. I am not the fastest, per lap times. But, I am able to win races against those same folks. Racing have developed riding skills that I don't believe I would have during a track day. The Amateur ranks allows for some of this learning and trying to do it at a faster pace can increase the risk factor.

I choose the lower HP level of what I consider a Lightweight bike. This power level offers me a little more time to react. When it comes to the Expert Racers I have much more confidence in their ability to ride and race in close quarters with much higher predictability. I don't find that to be true with the Am ranks, not saying there aren't a lot of talented and fast Amateurs. Maybe they should be Experts.

Mark
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Mark Tenn
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red900

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Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2008, 11:59:43 pm »
I'm confused... I thought by doing trackdays for 3 years, they were learning what they needed to do to race?

Now you're saying they only learn it while racing?

I really want to answer, but I think you use it to continue an argument rather than add anything positive.

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Dustin Boyd
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Sobottka

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Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #104 on: January 04, 2008, 08:41:37 am »
I really want to answer, but I think you use it to continue an argument rather than add anything positive.


go ahead... if you cant argue here wherer can you? besides I'm bored  :thumb:
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Kelly Daniels

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Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2008, 11:24:13 am »
Let's put the shoe on the other foot. What about riders who can only make a few races a year? Maybe podium in every event. These guys will never make expert even though they may be good enough and experienced enough to be safely competitive in expert. Just playing devil's advocate...
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r1owner

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Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2008, 11:33:42 am »
Let's put the shoe on the other foot. What about riders who can only make a few races a year? Maybe podium in every event. These guys will never make expert even though they may be good enough and experienced enough to be safely competitive in expert. Just playing devil's advocate...

If you podium every event and make only 3 or 4 weekends a year, you're going to get enough points to get bumped.
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jgalt187

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Re: Stay AM or petititon for EX?
« Reply #107 on: January 04, 2008, 05:22:08 pm »
If I could afford to run every event at three or four weekends, I would just cut back to running 3-4 races at every weekend! lol

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. What about riders who can only make a few races a year? Maybe podium in every event. These guys will never make expert even though they may be good enough and experienced enough to be safely competitive in expert. Just playing devil's advocate...
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 05:24:41 pm by jgalt187 »
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