My introduction, and request for input!

[DocSean]

Hey guys! I am new to the site, but have been trolling around for a little bit just to get my feet wet. I am currently a student in North Dakota, but recently took a job as a pharmacist in Tucson AZ (part of the reason I relocated was to be able to ride/race!) From what I have gathered, it seems like the most convenient series for me to get involved in is the CCS in the roadrace south west region that takes place entirely in Arizona. (correct me if I am wrong here)

One of my main concerns is that I am getting ready to buy a track bike, and don't really know where to go. I am very familiar/comfortable on two wheels, but have no motorcycle racing experience. Initially, I would like to race a stock machine and stay in a class that is relatively inexpensive to race in...furthermore, a class where rider skill determines how you place, as opposed to how much money you can sink into an engine build and susp. setup. For this reason, I am considering starting in the amateur supersport category. From my interpretation of these rules, it seems like the good setup would be newer 600cc four or 1000cc twin. I have been a Honda guy for some years now, so I've been considering an older 600rr or RC-51...would these bikes be able to hold their own in a division such as supersport?

Also, any pointers anyone can give me...at all, or any heads up on what I can expect??? How many people will I be racing with? How competitive is this series? etc. etc. I have zero racing experience! I plan on attending the new racers clinic and trackday to get things off to a start...and then just jump in! Any info you guys could offer up would be awesome. Thanks again, and I look forward to becoming a part of the community here!

Sean

[Super Dave]

Well, anyone that is starting out in road racing should probably consider an SV650.

First, it's based on two generations built from 1999 to current.  Even the first generation models are competitive.  Parts are plentiful in the pits, the internet, and even from your local Suzuki dealer.  You can run it stock, mildly modified in supersport trim, or even go crazy in superbike.  It's a platform for everything.

Second, it's cheaper on tires than 600s.  Yeah, if you get really fast on an SV you'll use more tires, but you still won't go thorugh as many as a fast guy on a 600 compared to a fast guy on an SV650.

Third, the skills you build in the lightweight classes apply to middleweight (600's) and other classes above (RC51, CBR1000RR).  It just won't cost as much money. 


Yeah, I do belive that CCS has a whole series in Arizona.  I don't have the link for it, but, hopefully, someone will come up with one.  The CCS website should have some links there for you via http://www.ccsracing.us


How many people will you race against?  It can depend upon the class, the region, the track, and the time of year.  Usually, the beginnin of the year is the most active when everyone is uninjured, has money, and it's neither too hot or too cold.  Grids can be as big as twenty plus bikes and as small as a few bikes. 

I'm sure my answers will prompt some discussion and some alternative ideas.  I've been at this for a long time, and I usually look at this from a financial point of view.  A lot of riders go hard for two years and then go away.  Seems like riders learn a lot more about four years into it when the sensory overload is gone and some important lessons have been learned.

[RCR_531]

+1 for the SV is a great place to start.

[Jason748]

I agree, SV's are a great starter bike.  But if you're set on a 600 (middleweight) the 600RR is solid bike, then agian I'm a little bias.  Stay away form the RC51.

You may want to get a hold of user Loc_dogg on here.  He raced the CCS southwest series the last two years.  And can probably give you a good idea of who to talk to, where to go, and what the competition is like.  I know he has a 05 CBR600RR race bike up for sale.

[DocSean]

Hey guys, thanks for the input so far. I will certainly not rule the SV out, but to be honest I had never considered it before. I am a bit biased on the RR's, I have owned a 954rr and a 1000rr and thought they were great bikes.

One question regarding class; Judging from the rules it appears that you aren't really allowed to do 'any' modifications to a bike and remain in the supersport class, I'm I correct in saying that? Also, from supersport to superbike, it appears that the only difference becomes being able to make modifications to the frame?

[Super Dave]

Well, you'll have to read it over closer.

Supersport, in a nut shell, allows you the opportunity to replace the rear shock, the complete fork internals, remove the starter, and other things.  The air box must remain in place, and the internal engine configuration must remain "basically" stock.  Stock wheels are allowed.

Other things too, yes.

Superbike you can completely replace the forks, huge internal engine changes (cams, pistons, porting, etc.), aftermarket wheels, brakes, and you can use slicks when you can only use DOT based race tires in Supersport. 

Does that make a difference?  Well, first it will hit your pocket book as each thing, potentially, costs money.  Higher HP doesn't mean dramatically faster lap times.  I'll usually pull lap times out of my head where very fast, capable riders riding two similar chassis bikes, let's say a GSXR600 vs a GSXR1000, with similar weights may only show a reduction in their lap times by about a second on some tracks even though they have a 30 to 40% increase in power.  You won't get that kind of power increase from a lot of modding on a regular bike. 


Best investments are starting with brake lines, brake pads, crash stuff (like Woodcraft solid pegs/rear sets, frame sliders), correct chassis support through springs that are rated for your weight, and then decent dampening through internal fork modifications and rear shock body replacement, which usually will also offer more chassis opportunities through the ability to change rear ride heights.

That's kind of a basic run down, and I could ramble for hours. 

I think Mark Weiss might have something to do with CCS SW...might want to look for his name on this board or in some circles down in your area. 

[wolf44]

+2 on the sv650.  Because of the lack of power it will teach you how to be fast in the corners.  I think if I was going to build one I'd start with front and rear suspension.  Traxxion rods with emulators and springs that are correct for your weight, and an afermarket rear shock with adjustable ride hight so you can set your geometry.  Then brake lines and depending on your budget rearsets or jack up plates. 

[gpz11]

+3 for the SV650. It's an awesome bike to start out on. Parts are cheap and plentiful. Easy on tires.

[Jeff]

Dear sweet Jesus, do NOT buy an RC-51 as a racebike...

And I'M a Honda guy...

The SV-650 is probably the most logical choice for starting racing for all of the reasons listed above.  (and again, I am a Honda guy).

[resurection]

Boy did you guys say it all , and it reads well Dave.

Maybe my two cents but can't A fella take any bike to a track day maybe two,before he decides weather he likes racing or not?
  Does he weight 220+lbs? SV's? maybe another mild manerd good track bike a little bigger .I'm a big fella and I'd like your opinion in that regard.
  Thanks Gus

[DocSean]

Alright, I'll keep the RC51 OFF the list. The twin honda has just always had a little place in my heart, but maybe it belongs better on the street!

I am going to keep my eyes out for a good deal on both SV's, and the typical 600's. To be honest, money isn't a HUGE concern, not to say that I just want to throw it away, but fortunately I have been saving/looking forward to this for a couple years now.

Dave, thanks a lot for clearing up between the two classes for me. You really have to look at the rules, and see what's NOT there and interpret it. For first modifications I think clipons, rearsets, sliders, and they other things you mentioned seem great, and also like things I can do myself. Where can I guy go to, to get his bike properly equipped and setup for his weight. I am about 165-170 equipped. Also, are there any things that a stock bike would be REQUIRED to have for safety purposes to race that I should know about when shopping around?

[Ducmarc]

sharkskinz bodywork.. not cheap but real tough . penske shock. save money for tires. go to the races and see who you got for tire guys in AZ. I like bridgestones but the track support sucks in FL.

[DocSean]

I never really took into consideration the expense of tires that everyone seems to be raving about. If I am running supersport I have to be running DOT approved tires....I would imagine that a set would be good for a season, am I overestimating the life of tires on the track?

[roadracer162]

I never really took into consideration the expense of tires that everyone seems to be raving about. If I am running supersport I have to be running DOT approved tires....I would imagine that a set would be good for a season, am I overestimating the life of tires on the track?

You are definately overestimating tire life. Lightweight bikes may get two weekends out of them depending on how you handle the rotation of tires and wheels. Soome folks on bigger bikes go through a couple sets in a weekend.

My rotation starts with a fresh set for the sprint races, doing about four races before I use them strictly for practice. I have tested using tire warmers for longevity but really found no significant benefit at the level of rider that I am. The tires seem to wear out(lose traction) with just about the same mileage.

A lightweight bike really is the way to go for learning and keeping expense down. I know that many have spent a lot of money on their ride only to get Middleweight power. That does not commit you to do the same.

My belief is that if you are a new rider and can run a 1000 well then you are a rider level equivalent to an expert rider (club racing).

Mark

[wolf44]

I never really took into consideration the expense of tires that everyone seems to be raving about. If I am running supersport I have to be running DOT approved tires....I would imagine that a set would be good for a season, am I overestimating the life of tires on the track?

i guess it all depends on what kind of tires you are using and how fast you are.  You can run pilot power tires to a decent pace before they really start to get mushy.  They'll last you a lot longer than DOT race tires but you won't get the grip.  I used a rear tire every weekend and a front every two (power race's).    Trying to squeeze my tires too long cost me about a grand after paying for new rearset pieces, bodywork and forks after a highside. I switched to bridgestones at the end of the year and they seemed to wear a lot better to where I might have been able to squeeze another race or two out of them before the grip started going off but I wasn't able to test it as the season ended.

[gpz11]

FWIW: I happen to love my RC51. It's totally changed my riding capability. I've gone from being back of the pack to winning races.

Granted, I wouldn't start on a 51.

Both Wolf44 and I have 51's.

[wolf44]

Yes I love my 51 as well.  I think why everyone is saying don't get a 51 is because there is only really one class that they are competitive in (supertwins) and now that the 1125r and 1098R are out it may not be long before the 51 isn't competitive there either.  An SV650 was competitive(or at least competed against machines with similar performance) in 4 classes last year GTL, LWSS, LWSB, and LW GP not to mention you can run them in Supertwins and do pretty well on tighter tracks.  With the SV being (as of now) an ultra lightweight it will probably be the dominant bike in the class and you can "race up" a class in LW and be competitive as well.  There are just more arenas with an SV to compete and do well. 
I bought my RC51 because I have a history with it and I always said that if I got a chance to get another one I would just because I loved it so much when I first had one.  My machine may only be really competitive in one class next year but I'm just out there to have fun. 

[Jeff]

I never really took into consideration the expense of tires that everyone seems to be raving about. If I am running supersport I have to be running DOT approved tires....I would imagine that a set would be good for a season, am I overestimating the life of tires on the track?

This could quite possibly be the greatest quote on the forum...  ever.

[DocSean]

This could quite possibly be the greatest quote on the forum...  ever.

Haha, yeah, so I see! Like I said, I have zero race experience to date. The last time I ran a set of Pilot Powers on my 1000rr they lasted 6000 miles, apparently race track miles are not equal to street miles huh?

So when you guys say a tire is good for around 4 sprints, you are referring to the actual race sessions? I certainly don't doubt what you guys are saying, but for someone who only has street experience, it's just tough to imagine that tires can only go 80 laps before they become practice tires.

[Court Jester]

i never do more than one race weekend on a set of tires. depending on the number of races i run, sometimes up to three sets a weekend. either way, i'm still slow but i feel safer and slid a less when getting on the gas hard.
some folks do stretch their tires out over more than one weekend or turn them around in a real pintch. but sooner or later it will come back to bit you if you do it enough. new tires are much less than body work, clip ons, rear sets, and ex-rays.

[resurection]

I don't mean to send this thread my way, but
Dave you must see some bigger guys at school and maybe more if we (240 6' 4'') had some input .
In regard to my post earlier in this thread anybody ?

[tstruyk]

80 laps?  I start paying REALLY close attention to what they are doing around 50-60... usually after that they are a TD tire or for sale to street/track day guys.

Jester hit the nail on the head.  Cheap insurance.  Some guys are better, more comfortable slding around a bit. 

The BEST grip the tires have to offer comes from lap 2-22 on a PR5 (this according to Tommy Mason) after that there is a decline in performance.  How hard you are pushing will determine if you notice the decline or not... if you run a LW bike you should be able to extend that performance a bit but then we are talking different carcass, compound etc... Listen to the guys that have run LW, they should give you an idea of how long a set of tires will last.

I would run no more than 3 sprints and 1 GT on a PR5 on my R6.  the old PRC's I could run 2 weekends if need be.  Practice on old tires... save the sticky for the races.  One set a weekend is very doable on an SV, I would budget for 2 weekends if I ran a LW bike.

good luck!

tim

[unforgivenracing]

In regards to tire use, and with RC51 particularly,  If the temps stayed in the mid 70's or below, I could get a weekend out of the front tire (5-races)  I would barely make it threw a day on the rear.  (big power just spins when you hit the throttle out of turns.)  For a starter bike, start small, used, cheap.  Less cost= more madness.

[Simon]

DO NOT skimp on tyre replacement. I did it my first season, saved $300 on tyres...paid $800 in repairs when they let go, and then had to buy a new set!! Rookie mistake.