2008 rules changes

[badmonkey]

To get 750 out of a falicon 68mm stroker crank you need 3mm overbore on pistons. They leave that out on the web site now. Guess I'll be cracking out my BIllet cylinders for the sv next year and build an 800.....LOL

[HAWK]

Well, my bad, I didn't actually do the math. I just talked to them on the phone and was told  that the 68mm crank with stock bore was 754. Guess I need to start verifying every bodies claims, damn.  Oh well back to the drawing board, and I guess it'll have to be my drawing board this time.

[garrettrick]

i see the ducati 848 is allowed in MW classes...is that including mwss??? or just SB & GP?

[ahastings]

looks like all MW

[garrettrick]

very cool !

[ekraft84]

Upon review of requests for changes to grid procedure,  one theme stood out, that griding by points was rewarding the loyal customer. The flaw with that is if your loyal customer finishes say 15th in 7 races, he scores 70 points, while a “contingency hunter” only races  and wins twice has the same 70 points, who deserves to rewarded? The loyal customer or the contingency hunter? Grids by order of entry gives all riders the opportunity to start towards the front.

How is that a flaw?  You're rewarding both the loyal customer who runs in 7 races, and you're rewarding the contingency hunter who performed well and entered only 2 races.  You're in effect killing two birds with one stone.  Now you switch to order of entry, which is simply a poor idea.  It all goes with the mentality that CCS exists to make as much money as possible.  You're hiding the fact that you want more people pre-entered and committed to races - thus more entry fees money for CCS.  And as a business, sure that's fine.  But that's the only way what you're doing actually makes sense.

Other common comment was regarding safety because the “faster” riders may have to start in the back.  Excuse me while I toss this out for your consideration,  now we need everyone to bring their time slip from the drag strip indicating their reaction time and we grid that way or 60 foot times or ¼ mile times? Absurd, yes, this is not bracket racing, but this would be the only way to accurately judge how quick someone is going to start a race to make it safer. Since all riders start at a dead stop and are on similar machines, the number of points scored are irrelevant to safety.

This is so absurd it's laughable.  Without a doubt you're upping the risks by placing the "fast" riders in the back.  It's a simple fact and the odds go up.  Sure it's everyone's responsibility to pass cleanly, but tell that to guys who are racing for $2000 in a contingency race.  Heck, ask some of the "slower" guys and many of them will tell you they'd rather start further back until they earn their way to the front (or primarily because they want to reduce *their* risk of an incident when being passed by a "fast" guy).  What you're talking about (and the potential safety risks that exist) has very little to do with reaction time off the line.  It's about faster riders pushing their way to the front and making sketchy passes early on to get there.

So justifiably, your response would likely be, "well they should pre-register early" - which again, is fine by you as a business because you want to make money.  If it suddenly looks like rain for the weekend, you've got your money already in hand by guys that might have decided to not show up in the first place.  Perfect for you.

Just call it like it is.  That the rule is for you to make more money.  Trying to justify it with words like "customer loyalty" and dismissing the issue of safety by comparing roadracing to the drag strip doesn't make any sense.

just another element that we do different that adds up to the whole package that makes CCS the leader in US roadracing.

Define leader.  Is that the most events?  Or the most riders?  Or more importantly, does that mean you offer the best racing product to the end customer?

I do like the idea of taking the purses out of the amateur stuff.  That is one good idea I've seen proposed.

[Eric Kelcher]

SuperSport rules in Supersport classes, Superbike rules in Superbike Classes Grand Prix in Grand Prix classes; no extra modifications allowed or restrictions to certain bikes.

Eddie, grids not sure of your point with regard to grids, grids set by entry date are fair to everyone, noone has advatange over another. And the drag race time slips point was in regard to making the start safer, and very much tongue in cheek and as I said the concept is pretty absurb. The idea was not to line everyone up as they would finish a race; if you could do that then there would not be a race. A rider always has the right to line up in the back of the grid if they feel they may not get off the line safely or prefer to start late.

You do ask a question that was not addressed in my first post and did not think there was any question as to the validilty of the statement. CCS is defined as the leader in all aspects you describe  (and has been since at least 2000, 07 numbers listed), with the most events(60), the most riders(3300+), the most total entries (nearly 45%  of all road race entries in US are sanctioned by CCCS/ASRA), and the highest average entries per event (601) As to the best racing product ,that is somewhat subjective there are best for several different aspects VIntage, Mini, Grass roots/sportsman racing, Pro, endurance, etc and CCS does not offer oppurtunities in each of those but in those that CCS offers, more people prefer what CCS offers as seen by entries in these comparable classes.

[ahastings]

With all those big numbers, how about some bigger purses for experts. CCS Florida can do it, and they are much smaller than CCS as a whole. Their Unlimited GP expert alone pays double what the rest of CCS pays and as much as ASRA's premier class and more then the other 3 ASRA "PRO" classes. Ever wonder why the ASRA grids are so small?
  As someone that races in other orgs, I do believe the gridding by points is safer as it tends to sort the faster guys toward the front. It is not perfect, but it is a lot closer than by pre-entry. If it was done like Daytona where only the pre-entered riders were gridded by points CCS would still get the money early, maybe just not as early as the current system.

[Super Dave]

noone has advatange over another.

Well, actually, it does quite substantially.

I make less money than a lot of other people.  Additionally, a larger portion of the money I have has gone to CCS than other people over the past years since I've had a CCS license since 1988.

I cannot enter races as early as some riders.  It has a direct influence on my grid, period.

I enter when I can based on my opportunity to do so.  That also affects my ability to enter races with CCS by volume. 

Over time, I have gone from entering nine races an event weekend to where I, and someone else I knew, were entering one race a weekend in 2006.  That was ULGP, and we entered that race because in 2006 grids were equitable in that there was qualifying.  I don't believe that that should be the way that all grids should be set up, but it was at least equitable.

If I have to look at entering races six to four months in advance, it affects everything.  How many races, how many tires, safety gear, etc.  I'm sure it does this even for those that have more income than me to put into this.


If there is no advantage to being able to be up front because of the date of grid purchase, then we could just determine race order by lap times alone. 

Giving up time to some riders that get a jump on the field because of the date of grid purchase IS AN ADVANTAGE. 

[ekraft84]

The idea was not to line everyone up as they would finish a race;if you could do that then there would not be a race

Let me make sure I'm clear.  So all the series that have qualifying before races, what's that all about?  MotoGP, AMA, WSBK, etc. must not know what they're doing.  Surely there's been no good racing when they line the grids up in qualifying order.  Are you really trying to sell us on that idea?  Talk about being absurd.  You're again sugar coating the underlying fact that you want more money by doing grids in order of registration.  It's extremely transparent to see, really it is.

CCS is defined as the leader in all aspects you describe  (and has been since at least 2000, 07 numbers listed), with the most events(60), the most riders(3300+), the most total entries (nearly 45%  of all road race entries in US are sanctioned by CCCS/ASRA), and the highest average entries per event (601) As to the best racing product ,that is somewhat subjective there are best for several different aspects VIntage, Mini, Grass roots/sportsman racing, Pro, endurance, etc and CCS does not offer oppurtunities in each of those but in those that CCS offers, more people prefer what CCS offers as seen by entries in these comparable classes.

So yes, CCS is all about quantity.  That's all you validated with your facts.  Quality - well that's more subjective as you said (which is funny, as you didn't list any stats that demonstrate quality).  Not to mention the silly overall championship requirements you have (which completely take away the value of it), which contribute to guys running 8-10 races in a weekend, which makes your 45% statistic rather easy to achieve.

[Racer510]

Give it a rest, dude. CCS is a business and of course they are in it to make money like every business is and they are fair with what they do.

[steve p]

Fair?  It is fair in the regards that everyone has a chance to pre
enter.  That is about it.  It is a waste of time trying to argue or get
things changed as I stated earlier as I'm with ekraft.  Just be
honest with everyone.  None of the people I know or have talked
to agree with the pre-entry grid procedure.  I must know all of
the minority in ccs racing.  CCS is a business which needs to
make money, I got it, just say it to your customers.  Same thing
with qualifying.  It would be alot easier to say we don't have the
manpower or the extra money to spend on qualifying rather than
say it is too much pressure.  I'll still race either way.