2008 rules changes

[HAWK]

Dave, I'm not really interested in running ULW, I really hope they decide to leave ULW alone. I don't want to see the Hawks, FZR400 etc lose their class. What I need to know is am I building a 680cc SB motor or a 780cc SB motor. I think the change in displacement limits for the watercooled twins is more than enough to solve the problem without taking ULW away from the bikes that are there now.

[ahastings]

One I proposed got denied- eliminate Am purses and increase expert purses. Then I am reading this months RR World article about CCS Florida on page 114. Quote from Henry DeGouw the owner/promoter "We run 9 lap GP races, we pay a $500 purse to each Expert class. The Unlmtd GP Expert is a $2000 purse with the winner getting $600 and we pay down to 10th place."  De Gouw is focused on making sure that there's one big main event on race day. "Ok, here's the thing. I will not pay amateur purses,"DeGouw says. "If they're going to make money, they're going to move into the Expert ranks.".......
  I like the way he thinks.

[Super Dave]

CCS racing is about current model racing, not vintage or classic, on one hand that would be a lot easier in determining where bikes fit as they have a past history to work form on the other hand vintage racing is a stagnant form of racing while very cool and has its place there are no new innovations for the class.

Well, Paul, I'd worry about LW then if you're not going to do UlwSB. 

Ultimately, the quote from Eric is reasonable in many ways.  There are plenty of ways to build a reasonably current racing motorcycle. 

I am building an H1, sure.  But I don't have huge aspirations to win races in CCS with it, although, I might be able to.  Maybe.  I can't necessarily expect there to be a class for my classicly inspired machine.  Even if I were to update the wheels and forks, it's still a 500cc air cooled, piston port, three cylinder two stroke.

I don't have great answers after that. 

I like some of the mix that the midwest has.  And it appears that Eric is leaving an opportunity for those that feel strongly to do a couple things.  First, it will be necessary to draft a reasonable set of rules now that the direction has been set.  Obviously, there's a great separation between current middleweights and some bikes that just fall between what has been known as lightweight and middleweight.  In some areas, there aren't many of these bikes, but they are certainly on the horizon.  Admittedly, the SV650 was in that position in 1999 when it came out as lightweight bikes were in the 350 to 500 range...RD350/400, CB400/CB550, liquid cooled RZ350's, then liquid cooled four strokes, EX500's, GS500's...

The SV was a change.  It certainly wasn't a middleweight bike, and the changes were implemented into the class.  I think we're at that impass again, nine seasons later.

Thoughts anyone?

[Super Dave]

One I proposed got denied- eliminate Am purses and increase expert purses. Then I am reading this months RR World article about CCS Florida on page 114. Quote from Henry DeGouw the owner/promoter "We run 9 lap GP races, we pay a $500 purse to each Expert class. The Unlmtd GP Expert is a $2000 purse with the winner getting $600 and we pay down to 10th place."  De Gouw is focused on making sure that there's one big main event on race day. "Ok, here's the thing. I will not pay amateur purses,"DeGouw says. "If they're going to make money, they're going to move into the Expert ranks.".......
   I like the way he thinks.

That's also echoed by others.  I agree.

[HAWK]

Dave, my point was if the LW rule changes stand then the SB prep limit for Water cooled twins goes to 800cc if it doesn't stand the the limit stays at 700cc. I was just asking Eric when there might be an answer to whether it stands or not. Eric says he hopes to have an answer by Nov 30 so hopefully I can order my pistons and crank on Dec 1.

[ahastings]

How do you get 780cc out of an SV 650? A 3mm over is only 700cc, So I guess you then increase the stroke by a fair amount. Sounds like an expensive grenade to me. That would end up being one expensive SV.

[HAWK]

Falicon sells 2 different stroker cranks, one gives you 700 with stock pistons and the other 754. The big crank with 2mm over pistons would be 780. I agree the reliabliity will be questionable but I would rather stay in LW and if the rules change per what we have seen posted then building to them is the only way to keep up come Daytona.

[Sig]

pre-entries by points........post entries at the back. :)

just thought i'd beat the dead horse a little more..........

[EX_#76]

From the emails I have received there is some question as to the thoughts behind changes and what the exact wording of the rules will be.

Sorry to have been so brief in the original outline of rules committees outcomes in regard to why some things have been allowed/disallowed and what the actual rule wording would be. Most of the exact rule wording has not been determined but obviously there has been some confusion on displacement limits between classes as I did not list what those would be.
In Ultra-Lightweight SuperBike the displacement limit for a 4 valve water cooled twin would be 650cc (not 700, 750 or 800 cc) Lightweight SuperSport, Grand Prix and SB would have its limit raised to 800cc for a water cooled non-desmo twin.

All of the rule changes were looked at strictly from a fairness aspect, my part of this business is strictly the on-track activities and insuring everyone is treated equal and classes are balanced. The rules’ committees fall under this same instruction. While the income obviously plays a part in the continued existence of CCS fair classes and rules are the issue at hand. The rules are fairly static and we try to keep it that way, as new bikes come out that are of the sporting racing type we do try to evaluate what is happening to the classes that they fit into under the current rules and if that seems appropriate to class structure. CCS racing is about current model racing, not vintage or classic, on one hand that would be a lot easier in determining where bikes fit as they have a past history to work form on the other hand vintage racing is a stagnant form of racing while very cool and has its place there are no new innovations for the class. 

Which leads us to the notes I have from recommendation to make a shift in allowing the water cooled 650cc twins into Ultra-Lightweight. The current crop of large displacement air cooled twins that were already legal in Lightweight have come up in power and resulted in many comments from the smaller water cooled bike riders that those machines do not belong there. When results were inspected the air cooled large bore twins showed a huge disparity in the overall finish over the once dominant 650 water cooled twin when raced head to head. This has been a gradual shift over the last few years and is not indicative of any one region but the country as a whole as some tracks have not seen the influx of the A/C bikes or they are still in development whereas there are several riders that have multi year development into water cooled machines.

Simple directive was to see if there was an error in race classes or where the lightweight lines are and should they be redrawn. The top level LW bikes were determined to not be close to MW machines, meaning you couldn’t move the larger A/C machines up, so the other aspect evaluated was moving some of the lower HP bikes to the next lower class. Spec sheets were inspected for the top hp/ lightest weight bikes in the Ultra-Light class and it showed that there were multiple machines that made more hp than bikes that were excluded from the class ie liquid cooled 4 valve 650 twins. A comparison of lap times of ULSB and LSS was showing a disparity in that ULSB lap times were faster than LSS, this for a class that has theoretically slower machines. Next step was that that there were no current production sport bikes made that fit ultra-lightweight found and the hp numbers of the current production models that are raced.  (IE Motard have near similar power output and much lower weight, but generally have a top speed limit due to gearing availability.) So  weight-top speed was considered a push at worst, as the design of machines towards factory produced SuperMoto machines will see the street gearing needed installed in these machines in the very near future.
At this point I do not see time to have rules committee reconvene but I personally will take and do reviews of hard evidence that reflects why this should be reexamined, that based on notes was pretty thoroughly examined, should be changed, reversed, delayed, or other action taken.

800cc water cooled non-desmo twin in Lightweight and ThunderBike classes. We do not feel that this machine is out of line or performance with the other machines’ capabilities in these fields. This is not an overdog or an underdog and should fit neatly in the middle of this very diverse race environment.

125GP The 250 4 stroke was allowed as that is the direction that other 125GP racing is headed both on a national and international level with these similar output motors in purpose built frames. Currently we are not going to require the purpose built frame in order to compete in the 125GP class but may be changed to a purpose built or street based frame in the future.


Upon review of requests for changes to grid procedure,  one theme stood out, that griding by points was rewarding the loyal customer. The flaw with that is if your loyal customer finishes say 15th in 7 races, he scores 70 points, while a “contingency hunter” only races  and wins twice has the same 70 points, who deserves to rewarded? The loyal customer or the contingency hunter? Grids by order of entry gives all riders the opportunity to start towards the front.

Also in response to the request to grid by points, a comparison was made to other organizations that do grid by points and everywhere there was head to head competition within that geographical area entry date was preferred, by 45% more entries for entry date to points. Now granted there are differences other than just griding methods that may be reason that CCS sees more entries than other organizations in these areas of head to head competition such as classes, rules enforcement, officials, racers, tracks, pricing, etc but it is just another element that we do different that adds up to the whole package that makes CCS the leader in US road racing.

Other common comment was regarding safety because the “faster” riders may have to start in the back.  Excuse me while I toss this out for your consideration,  now we need everyone to bring their time slip from the drag strip indicating their reaction time and we grid that way or 60 foot times or ¼ mile times? Absurd, yes, this is not bracket racing, but this would be the only way to accurately judge how quick someone is going to start a race to make it safer. Since all riders start at a dead stop and are on similar machines, the number of points scored are irrelevant to safety.

So then we looked at other options, heat races or qualifying, which would require the reduction of race classes by 1/2 and a double entry fees for the same amount of race time, the increase in entry fees nixed this one. (Mainly because comments from riders about increased fees associated with this for tires and the rush to front in limited time.)

Now granted there are differences other than just gridding methods that may be reason that CCS sees more entries than competition in these areas of head to head competition such as classes, rules enforcement, officials, racers, tracks, pricing, etc but it is just another element that we do different that adds up to the whole package that makes CCS the leader in US roadracing.

The sparking knee/toe sliders was asked to be changed because it provided more excitement for spectators if allowed. The distraction for both safety workers and riders behind was judged to be too significant to justify the specator aspect.

All recomendations submitted were reviewed by the respectve commitee or official that was/is empowered with that function.

Eric,
    If I run an SV in LW Super Sport, will the maximun overbore remain1mm (as the rules are today)?  Or will there be some sort of statement allowing the SV to actually have it's displacement increased to 800CC.

Also in ULW will all of the current modification rules apply to SVs, or will they be changed to limit SV modifications?

Guy

[Garywc]

so let me get this straight you can run an sv 650 on light weight and then the same bike in ultra light weight?

[roadracer162]

Yeah, that's right. Lighweight will now be a class up for the SV. You can also do that with a Hawk, can you imagine a Hawk flying by one of those beemers?

Mark

[HAWK]

so let me get this straight you can run an sv 650 on light weight and then the same bike in ultra light weight?

Yes and no, ULW is a superbike class but you cannot run LWSB rules in ULWSB for the SV. The rules have not been completely spelled out yet but from what I have seen the ULWSB rules will limit it to 650cc while the LWSB rules will now allow the SV to go to 800cc. It kind of looks like the SS SV will be allowed to run ULWSB and the LWSB will be a new animal. Again none of this has been finalized yet, Eric is looking at the details and hopefully will give the final word at the end of the month.