08 LW class rules

[tdiaz_618]

I'm going to email Eric also.  That is a load of crap.  I'm OK with the Am - Ex split but the SV and EX650 racing in ULWSB is nuts!!!

[BadBoyRR]

I just got a response back from Eric. Attached is the three e-mail thread (starting reading from the bottom):


That response makes for a nice snippet, but we both know this will do nothing but make yet another SV dominated class and alienate anything outside the mainstream, or interesting.

I had planned on racing a CRF450, which will make a whopping 55hp, compared to an SV which is pushing 70hp. A low power dirt bike racing sportbikes with 15 more hp is not comparable.

Say you do alienate the growing 450 trend and aim towards the big bore bikes, these are comparable hp to the SV, but faaar less dependable.

I'm just saying it don't make sense. Why open up yet another class to a bike that already dominates several? How is that a smart business choice or providing a service to your customers; aka racers?     

----- Original Message -----
From: Eric.Kelcher@ccsracing.us
To: badboyrr
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 2:30 PM
Subject: RE: ULW classes?


The current level of hp that is available from a single cc 4 stroke is in line with the hp that a SV will make with the limits that are placed on it. The difference in handling and top speeds between the two is going to lend one to be better at certain tracks and less competitive at others.


Eric Kelcher   
Director of Competition 
Championship Cup Series 
American Sportbike Racing Association
(817) 246-1127 
(817)246-2977 fax 

-----Original Message-----
From: badboyrr
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 12:48 PM
To: Eric.Kelcher@ccsracing.us
Subject: ULW classes?


I just heard that the SV's may be legal in ULW next season. Is this true? If so, what class will older or odd bikes race in? I was planning to come out with some motard friends and run ULW, but we would be even less competitive with them than those currently allowed!

Don Allen 

[BadBoyRR]

Track days, WERA or AHRMA are looking better and better...

[roadracer162]

This is my active inclusion to the cause. Email sent to Mr. Kelcher.

Eric Kelcher,

I am writing to you regarding the most current information pertaining to the 2008 Ultralight Superbike rules change. You must understand my dismay to see something like this even mentioned for this class.

I have chosen to use the Ultralight class as a training ground for my sons and niece. It offers a medium where rider smoothness will benefit without the extra care needed for larger horsepower machinery. One can debate what high horsepower machinery is but I would venture to say that a 60 hp FZR400 is plenty for a novice rider. Riding on the track provides and environment of safety where my disciples can learn as opposed to the street. This class also gives them the added satisfaction of doing well in comparison to the other current legal machinery with Experts aboard them.

Some technical stuff:
The FZR400 (my son's bike) in stock form produces some 60 hp. Weighing in at 370# stock it is remarkably the same weight as an SV.  The SV in the same stock form produces 70+ hp and certainly a dominant figure in racing in the lightweight classes. I know that there are many other machines out there that can develop the hp a stock SV does but at what cost to those owners on that machinery. My son can only afford so much with registration and tires taking the bulk of it. The FZR400 is also limited in tire choice due to it's 18 inch rear wheel sizing making it limited in it's performace levels. In other words, the bike will only be as good as it's tires.

Some stuff that doesn't make sense:
I believe the Thuderbike Daytona lap record (AMA course) is still held by an SV (Barnes) but yet this bike will be allowed into the Ultralight class? The current SV is still very competitive in many classes and many regions (Hastings) beating out the newest Ducati 1000, a bike I believe should not be LW at least not Supersport.

An SV shown in the past as a dominant machine in the LW class is now being downgraded to a lesser machine in the rules. Did Suzuki start making them slower? But yet a bike such as the '91 FZR600 or F2 is considered "potentially dominant in the right hands" to run in the lightweight class. When was the last time that an FZR anything won a race? Was it a big race or regional stuff?

In summation, please consider Mark Evry's scenario where he rides an FZR400, SV and a Ducati 1000. He is competitive but not dominant on the FZR400, yet he is much faster on the SV and marginaly faster on the Ducati. The changes that are being spoken of just don't make sense for competiton sake and also for business sake. In the Florida Region the Ultralight class has had upwards of 14 riders attending an event. The inclusion of the SV will most likely erase those 14 competitors only to add how many SV's to the race?

As a monetary investment in this hobby, it seems that the "track-day" is looking more inviting and most probably the more likely choice.

Mark Tenn
Florida Region CCS #22

[Mongoose]

I Thought I would Post My letter to CCS as well

(draft)

My Name is Daniel Carr I have been involved with
racing in CCS for 2 years now and I love every second
of it. However, I am a little concerned about the
propose rule change to allow newer Post 1999 Liquid
cooled twins into ultra-light superbike. Ultra-light
superbike is my focus event I race a honda Hawk GT My
bike makes approx. 50 Hp on a good day (the amateur
ultra-light superbike champion this year Bike was
dyoed at Daytona and made 49 Hp to the wheels).
Ultra-weight superbike is the class as it stands as a
haven for oddball ball bikes such as Hawks, FZR400's
Honda CB1's and non GP spec 2 Stoke 250 Road bikes.
You will find in the pits that the people who race
these these so called oddball machines are some of the
most involved and dedicated racers who take pride in
being part of the racing community. By allowing
theses post 99 Twins i.e. (SV650's and ex650's) in the
class who are essentially eliminating all these
oddball bikes from competion, to wait around until the
Vintage community welcomes us. or move to WERA or
other racing organizations.

At Loudon my home track The lightweight class is
dominated by SV650'S who are very competitive against
the bigger ducati's We have almost no buells and I
have never seen a BMW on the track (except with a
sidecar attached at the classic weekend).

The below Dyno sheet were prepared by JD hord a former
AMA pro Champion in the twins class and is widely
respected as the foremost authority on Both Hawks and
SV's

Stock and lightly modified HAWK

http://www.hordpower.com/gallery/album06/hawkairbox

Stock and slightly Modified SV650

http://www.hordpower.com/gallery/album08/03sv650

As you can see The power difference is tremendous. as
well as the hawk being 20 years old this year. VS a
newer bike.

Contrary to the CCS bulletin. It is my understanding
that A Honda Hawk can not safely be modified to 800CC
with out spending a ton of money and it most likely
will not last a few races. There is only so much power
you can safely get out of a three valve head thats
design is nearly 30 years old (Honda ascot)

Please also consider that there is not an Ultra-light
Super-sport class so many bikes in ultra-light
Superbike races are close to Bone stock without any
power modifications, so there will be 50 horsepower
CB-1's GS500's-Hawks sharing the track with
95+Horrsepower SV650 Superbikes in competition is
kinda of scary. At loudon the Lightwieght class is a
big class second only to the middleweight classes.
that is alot of fast bikes.

The same bikes do share the track in the GTL race. The
GTL race is always red-flagged and very rarely runs
its full distance.

Lastly, As a member of the CCS racing community I ask
you not to expand the Ultra-light Class to include the
The far more powerful and advanced SV's and EX650's
Those bikes are true lightweights not Ultra-lights.
and would certainly banish some of us from
competition

Sincerely,

Daniel Carr
CCS/LRRS # 441

[ducatiboy]

Yes!  But they've been screwed for a long time now.  Even with last years rules, hawks are for dedicated "hawk people".  I raced one for a couple of years... even won a regional and track championship on one.  Mine was pretty fast in its final incarnation, but still strugglled with SV's.  There's one exception... if you put a kx500 in one it'll really cook... but only for a couple of laps.  After that, parts start falling off.

Hawks work fine in ULSB at LRRS where there are NO Sv's
They can even win the 2007 Amatuer ULSB crown at Daytona.

[ducatiboy]

Sorry but I don't want motards in ULSB either.  :D   At least they are better than Sv's  :lol:

Can the track series make there own rules?  Might it be different at Firebird than it is at NHIS?

I just got a response back from Eric. Attached is the three e-mail thread (starting reading from the bottom):


That response makes for a nice snippet, but we both know this will do nothing but make yet another SV dominated class and alienate anything outside the mainstream, or interesting.

I had planned on racing a CRF450, which will make a whopping 55hp, compared to an SV which is pushing 70hp. A low power dirt bike racing sportbikes with 15 more hp is not comparable.

Say you do alienate the growing 450 trend and aim towards the big bore bikes, these are comparable hp to the SV, but faaar less dependable.

I'm just saying it don't make sense. Why open up yet another class to a bike that already dominates several? How is that a smart business choice or providing a service to your customers; aka racers?    

----- Original Message -----
From: Eric.Kelcher@ccsracing.us
To: badboyrr
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 2:30 PM
Subject: RE: ULW classes?


The current level of hp that is available from a single cc 4 stroke is in line with the hp that a SV will make with the limits that are placed on it. The difference in handling and top speeds between the two is going to lend one to be better at certain tracks and less competitive at others.


Eric Kelcher  
Director of Competition 
Championship Cup Series 
American Sportbike Racing Association
(817) 246-1127 
(817)246-2977 fax 

-----Original Message-----
From: badboyrr
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 12:48 PM
To: Eric.Kelcher@ccsracing.us
Subject: ULW classes?


I just heard that the SV's may be legal in ULW next season. Is this true? If so, what class will older or odd bikes race in? I was planning to come out with some motard friends and run ULW, but we would be even less competitive with them than those currently allowed!

Don Allen 

[Super Dave]

Can the track series make there own rules?  Might it be different at Firebird than it is at NHIS?

Well, kind of.  LRRS, which is held at NHIS, is a CCS affiliate.  Trackaddix, which is the CCS Great Plains.  Florida region is Henry DeGouw's. 

Anyway, affiliates and independent regions do offer specific things that can be different.  Trackaddix eliminated HWSB and Thunderbike from their schedule, as an example.  CCS Midwest is owned and responsible to CCS Ft Worth. 

Regardless, at the Race of Champions, everything is under the standard CCS rules. 

In LRRS, there's amateur, junior, and expert.  At ROC, the juniors race with the experts.

[Ridgeway]

I think this may have tipped me over the edge to run a MW bike next year.  Starting to look like the economical way to go vs. LW the way things are going.

I don't have the time or $$$ to deal with multiple tear-downs per year, or going with a big-bore air-cooled machine.

[backMARKr]

Take or leave it BUT...

before everybody runs out and buys a MW, or swears off racing for trackdays, I think Paul has said it repeatedly now:

Make your feelings known to CCS BEFORE the rules are set in stone

Yes I understand that this may not change a thing, but at the same time, could it hurt?

Its like voting --- Don't bitch about the government if you've done nothing to change it.

My 2 cents....

flame on.

[HAWK]

Ridgeway I agree, I think in the long haul that this ruling is going to cause LW to become a much more expensive playground. BMWs are very expensive up front and 800cc SV will require a lot of maintenance. I see this rule change as renaming LW ULW and creating a new class that will be called LW. If judged in supersport trim the BMW and SV1000 are not very different from one another.

Thanks Mark, I think a number of racers have contacted Eric Eric.Kelcher@ccsracing.us about this topic and I think it may be having some effect as well.

Please remember when you do contact Eric to be polite, give valid reasons for your disagreement and don't threaten. If your email or letter is constructive it will carry much more weight than if you are threatening.

[Super Dave]

Well, before anyone gets cound up about building, I don't think Ed Key's fastest times on his Superbike are substantially faster than his Superbike.


As for going to another class, you've got to factor in the cost of tires.


I would still be interested in seeing what the actual structure of rules are.