'Grid/Starts' etiquette question for the experts

[Speedballer347]

I have been bumped into the expert class, and I am NO expert.
I have no fear/problem racing expert, and also understand I will not be competitive anymore.
That's fine.

But my question has to do w/ riding etiquette in the expert class, in regard to 'gridding/starts'.

What is the correct proceedure for amateurs racing expert, on sprint-race 'starts'?
Should I start from the back, and try to work my way forward, or is it OK for an amateur to pre-reg and start up front, and then just drift rearward in positions?
I do not want to hold up the people who are actually racing/competitive, and I would like to get their point of view.

If an amateur (slower expert) gets a good hole-shot, do you guys just cruise around him at first oppertunity, or do you say "f'n moron, get outta da way!!!!!!"

I understand the urgency associated w/ a good start in expert sprint races to the leaders, so I guess I am asking.....is it OK for me to pre-reg, or should I wait and register @ the track and get gridded in the back?
If I do pre-reg, is it OK to get a good hole-shot and get in front of better riders, or should I just kinda lightly accellerate, and hang back w/ the midpackers.

I don't want to cause any probs out there, so what's the answer?

[5bikemike227]

            don't worry, make,em pass ya. ha-ha.

[Speedballer347]

           don't worry, make,em pass ya. ha-ha.

I thought you promised me you were gonna quit drinking during the day ;D ;)

5Bike, I need to talk w/ ya this week.  I'll holler at ya in a day or two 8)

[Baltobuell]

 I got to ride the Buell Lightning series as an Amature but could get good starts. The fast guys won't be behind you long. The REAL aggressive types will bounce you out of the way if you hold them up. I only worried about it on the last lap if it looked like they may get near lapping me. They got closer than I would have liked, but it didn't happen. It would have sucked to screw up the leader. From the start, go for it.

[nfcracin]

start in back so I have a chance to bet ya. :D :D

[Speedballer347]

start in back so I have a chance to bet ya. :D :D

Another drunk one ;D
If you pass me, I am burnin' your wheelie footage ;)

[the_weggie_man]

You're an expert .... you have earned the right to grid wherever you want in an expert grid. Front or back, don't worry about it, run your race and let the others run theirs.

Remember, you are racing the track not other riders. Your job is to get around the race track as fast as you can, nothing else. Don't worry about who is in front or in back of you.

You say you have no fear of racing expert ... then why this question?

[tzracer]

As we teach in Licensing Clinics, you have 2 grid positions, the one you are assigned and the last row of the experts in your case. It is best to say something to the grid people but not necessary.

[Litespeed]

Experts are no different than amateurs except for the color of there plates.  Would you consider gridding at the back of an amateur grid because the other riders were faster than you?  OF COURSE NOT.  Take the best grid you can and run the best race you can.  You might be surprised how fast you can go when you have someone fast to follow...

[Speedballer347]

You're an expert .... you have earned the right to grid wherever you want in an expert grid.

Weggie, thanks for the props, but I didn't earn P@@P!
Through nothing more than aggressive riding, I was able to get upfront (in AM) and thus bumped.  
Nothing more, & nothing really earned....in MY book.

My lack of seat time, and zero-knowledge of any track other than Gateway means, I will be an eratic hazard to any 'true' expert who is closing on me @ mach-5 :P

Holding up a COMPETITIVE expert at the start (even for a few corners ) can decide the outcome, and my intention is NOT to hold up some racer, while I battle my way to 10th (or 20th) :P ;D
That's not racing....that's holding people up.

You say you have no fear of racing expert ... then why this question?

What's to fear(?), finishing mid-pack expert, as opposed to front-pack amateur? No fear here.
I think you misinterpreted my original post.
Anyway, racing expert won't be half as scary as riding the bike I was racing in 2002 :P ;D

I suspect I will pre-reg, and then just start 'lite' to let the Playaz go....then race/dice w/ my buddies from amateur 2002  :) 8)

[r6_philly]

I suspect I will pre-reg, and then just start 'lite' to let the Playaz go....then race/dice w/ my buddies from amateur 2002  :) 8)

Don't you think "starting lite" would cause more of a hazard? The Expert who grided behind you didn't reigster til late, and want to make up for that by having a great start. Would he know that you will not be giving it all on the start? I suspect you will hold more people up on the start than during the race.

If you always go back to the rear of the grid, when would you decide you are ready to fight with the faster racers? Since you will be in the back riding your own race, maybe with your buddies, would you learn as fast as you would up front?

I suggest you just go out, ride as well as you want, and don't worry about everyone around you. Someone who is a fast expert has been riding for a long time, and passed countless people. Many races in CCS are combined, and many experts have to get around slower AM's during the race when lapping them. Besides, if an Expert wants a good chance at winning, and don't want to be held up, there is always the option of register earlier than you.

I have watched and timed expert races in MA, many experts(mid pack and back) ran the same or slower laptimes than winning AM's. You will have people to race and you may come out on top.

Experts know the gridding proceedure. If any of them know they always have a good chance of winning, they would have registered ALREADY. We do not time qualify, everyone knows this, and everyone who doesn't want to get held up can do something about that by registereing early. Being held up? its a part of racing, and I hope all our experts know it is a fact of life and have had plenty of opportunities to practice dealing with that. I think you should be confident, ride well, and you may be fighting for the podium sooner than you think. If you accept that you will be slower than most before the season, then what is your racing goal?

Good luck at the races, you will be just fine :)

[duc995@aol.com]

You can always grid at the back of the pack after the warm up lap.  I did this when I first started racing so I would have more people to chase down and practice passing! ;D

[oh344ccs]

Fast guys will go around, the worst thing you could do would be to change andything about your riding.  Starting slow will just end up causing crashes for people triing to get around you while looking at their tach.  I agree with 5bike.  just hold your lines, they can do whatever they have to. 8)

[Speedballer347]

Thanks for the resonses so far guys.

Just to clarify, what I meant by 'lite-start' was NOT pulling away slowly @ the green flag...
What I meant by 'lite' was not going banzia into T1 rubbing & bumping people....but instead letting the experts pass me into T1 or T2 'IF' they show me the wheel (something I NEVER would do in AM) giving the winners a chance to get past me & do their thing 8)
After that, it's on!!! ;D ;)

[DanO966]

Erik,

I'm in the same boat you're in.  I'm gonna give it my all.  I'm going for the best grid spot and the best start I can get.  
If they (the other experts, and the ones that should be there...lol) can go that fast, why can't I?  I always ask myself that question, what if Nicky Hayden was there in that exact turn?  He'd be going faster then you and the fast experts.  So like I said if they can go that fast why can't I?  imho
that's just the way that i look at it.  Just don't get in too deep cuz crashing sucks...lol

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Nothing accelerates your learning curve more than getting smoked by the really fast guys.  I loved the Team Challenge for this reason.  I could observe and try to emulate the best experts, something I didn't get to do much in amateur lightweight.  Ride hard.  Take note of the way the best pass you.  Remember these moves so you too can use them.  Chase those who pass you.  Makes you better.
D@mn.  I'm getting aroused just thinking about it.  Is it race season yet?

[Speedballer347]

I'm in the same boat you're in.  I'm gonna give it my all.  I'm going for the best grid spot and the best start I can get.  

Your on! 8)

I was really just concerned about holding up the winners, but if you and Mike are planning to go-for-it, count me in!
You and Mike (and a couple other guys) were the amateur-buddies I was planning on dicing with, so I guess if I don't go 110% from the start, you guys will be gone :o ....and I don't think either one of ya will be waiting for me ;D

(stolen from DanO) "Game On!" ;)

[Jeff]

Really it depends.  If you get spooked by people passing you and/or being VERY close to you, start in the back.  If not, start in the front and let them pass you!

Just HOLD YOUR LINE! don't move all over the place trying to get out of the way!

When I'm on the grid, if I'm not in the front row, I line up and have a visual pic of how I'm getting around the people in front of me before I drop the hammer.  

If you're in front of me and I'm faster than you, I'll get around.  You're not a problem unless you start moving all over the place and become unpredictable.

[Speedballer347]

If you get spooked by people passing you and/or being VERY close to you, start in the back

Obviously, you have never diced w/ me ;D ;)

...Just HOLD YOUR LINE! don't move all over the place trying to get out of the way!
...I line up and have a visual pic of how I'm getting around the people in front of me before I drop the hammer.  
...You're not a problem unless you start moving all over the place and become unpredictable.

Like I said, I am not concerened about racing expert, I just wanted to know if it would be better to stay out of the top-guy's way at the start.  I was just trying to be thoughtful, not come off like an incompetent chicken :-/
I figured I am probably just fast & eratic (perhaps strange lines, brake points,  etc) enough to hold them up for a corner or two, and I don't want to do that.
But, it looks like my buddies are planning on pinning it at the start....so alas, I will be too :)

I'll still wind up finishing mid-pack though ::) ;D

[sdiver68]

Nah, I'm starting from the back, so I suggest you just post-enter :)

[Speedballer347]

Nah, I'm starting from the back, so I suggest you just post-enter :)

hmmmm ::) ;D

Travis King said I can ride on the back of his bike.  So, as long as I can hang on to my number-plate during the race.....I will finish right behind him :-*

Anything in the rules says this isn't legal? ;D

[chris_chops]

Experts are no different than amateurs except for the color of there plates.  Would you consider gridding at the back of an amateur grid because the other riders were faster than you?  OF COURSE NOT.  Take the best grid you can and run the best race you can.  You might be surprised how fast you can go when you have someone fast to follow...

I second this motion.  Ride it like you stole it and hold your lines.  Prepare to go faster, cuz you will!
Matt

[Super Dave]

Really it depends.  If you get spooked by people passing you and/or being VERY close to you, start in the back.  If not, start in the front and let them pass you!

Just HOLD YOUR LINE! don't move all over the place trying to get out of the way!

When I'm on the grid, if I'm not in the front row, I line up and have a visual pic of how I'm getting around the people in front of me before I drop the hammer.  

If you're in front of me and I'm faster than you, I'll get around.  You're not a problem unless you start moving all over the place and become unpredictable.

I think this is good advice.  

I guess the alternate question should be, "Are you that good in holding up people?"  It there's a way around or under you, it will be found by a rider that IS faster.

[bmfgsxr]

.

[bmfgsxr]

speed,

the only etiquette is to hold your line bro. you have just as much right to start up front as anyone by pre reg-ing. as long as you can hold the line your good to go, and i know you can. there is no being polite by starting off a little easier to let other have a better chance. that is the exact opposite of what racing is about. now if your a top level rider, and your teammate is chasing the #1 plate and he needs the points and you can help him out that is one thing, but this is club level racing bro. go for yours.

oh, and btw, whats this im not going to be competetive bullshit.. are you giving up before you even try.... i dont like the sounds of that. you better try and be competetive dammit. 8)

[Speedballer347]

...whats this im not going to be competetive bullshit.. ...you better try and be competetive dammit. 8)

hahahaha ;)
When your maXXed in a corner (can't go any faster) w/ both ends slipping and sliding....and Shane Clarke (from Kansas) Flat-Tracks :o past you on his gsxr1000 like you were standing still....it qiuckly illustrates what the word 'competitive' really means ;D

Nah....I don't wanna play before I learn the game.  ...Too much at stake (my body & bike) when I realize I am not experienced/skilled enough yet (if ever) to not make ANY mistakes at those speeds....
I'll take my time in 03 learning, and then try to be competitive in 04

I am sure once we get on the track, I will lose all sensibilities and quickly wad my bike up trying to follow Jeff Kramer into a corner ;D

[Super Dave]

Shane Clarke goes by...

That's just experience, set up, and perspective.  If you're sliding both ends, you might need a different set up...or you're lap times SHOULD be much faster than an old man like me all hooked up.

[Speedballer347]

...or you're lap times SHOULD be much faster than an old man like me all hooked up.

I'm a novice...give me some slack :P ;)

Tires are sliding, cause I try to make up in lean-angle/corner-speed, what I lose w/ bad lines, and amateur entrances.  Anyway, I never said 'controlably' sliding, I just said 'sliding' ;D

I'm sure I'll figure it all out eventually (I hope ::) ) w/ some seat-time and set-up knowledge.

[Bernie]

Am I am moron or just a slowpoke?  I've only slid the front of my sled in the wet and I was cryin' for my mammy for the next lap or two. :'(  Perhaps I'll always be relegated to filling in the back of the pack, but sliding the front sounds fairly frieghtning to me.  Do I have to do that to go fast? ???

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Am I am moron or just a slowpoke?  I've only slid the front of my sled in the wet and I was cryin' for my mammy for the next lap or two. :'(  Perhaps I'll always be relegated to filling in the back of the pack, but sliding the front sounds fairly frieghtning to me.  Do I have to do that to go fast? ???

     I have gotten use to having the front end slide a bit while racing due to my tires being used alot more than most guys apparently use them. I used the Dunlop 207 GP's when they became available in the late 90's (a definate improvement over the previous model 364's) and could get 2 1/2 to 3 events out of a pair of tires. I thought this wasn't too bad figuring that I was running 6 classes per event on my '96 GSXR 750 at that time (we also got 3 practice sessions per day then).
     In '98 I was racing at Putnam Park when my tires got to the point of being totally trashed and I had to replace them (started sliding excessively). I was having Ken Krebs (Chicago Performance) change the tires when one of the top guys at that time came over and was joking with Ken about how fried my tires were and wondered if I had crashed or even finished the race with them. He was shocked when I told him that I was the one glued to him during the last race and that I finished right behind him (I think he finished 3rd and I finished 4th racing in the heavyweight superbike class).
     The reason I gave this example was to make the point that unless your trying to set the track record or absolutely have to win a particular race, you don't have to have fresh tires constantly to still finish top 5. Racing is expensive and using your tires to the fullest can help to ease the financial burden and allow you to afford more classes. Another benefit to racing on used tires is it helps you to get use to your bike sliding a little. I was told early on that unless your tires are sliding excessively or unpredictably that you don't need to replace them, I have gone by that advice to this day.
     I figure someone may wonder how many times I have crashed due to using tires this much? Only once, at a CCS/NASB combined event at Road America, turn 14, while attempting to pass Ron Foye for 4th position. My front tire was trashed and I got a really bad front end push that eventually hooked up once it built up enough heat in the tire and high-sided me into orbit.
     If you don't want to slide, just buy new tires all the time and you won't have to worry about sliding at all until you get really fast (Sell me your take off's cheap! LOL). But if you learn how to controllably slide a little it will help you once you do get really fast.

[Super Dave]

Personally, I seldom ever slide the bike.  I prefer the bike to be driving forward rather than wasting the energy going sideways.  But, I think after doing this so long, I make up for a lack of agression with experience.  Which is a nice thing to have.

But I have always generally kept the bike pretty hooked up.