New for 2008: 450cc Four Stroke Spec Class

[Super Dave]

Pick any newer bike with low to mid hp, that would get some support, IE sales, and I'll go for it! (two or four!)

SV650.

Now, what dealership can I walk into and buy a two stroke motorcycle that would be a competitive road racer?

The same place you can get a competitive 450 four stroke road racer.  None.



Now, don't get a lot of us wrong, and I'm shooting in the dark that maybe some of us that are giving you resistance agree with me...

First, you've generated requirements that are already met by bikes like the SV650.  The 650 Ninja might give you other opportunities too. 

Secondly, I think there are plenty of us that see the short comings in the 450cc based class having no reliablity issues.  I've raced both two stroke and four strokes, and four stroke of even several eras prior.

Third, building a completely new class for a specific motorcycle...well, you talk about sales...where are all the current motard based road racers?  Motard racing hasn't led to any bigger road racing grids or any increase in entries for road racing classes even though there are classes in all the organizations that allow them. 

Even with Suzuki, Honda, Ducati, Aprilia, and other manufacturers building many opportunities for larger displacement twin cylinder motorcycles, classes specifically designed and tailored for that style of bike haven't been very successful. 

If you'd like some of the community to get on board with this, at least try to sell us on the idea with some additional ideas that don't get blasted down.

Regardless, have fun with all this.  That's the most important thing.

[BadBoyRR]

Part of the appeal of the 450 class to me is something new, interesting and different. I've been watching the same UJM's running around for the last 20 years,  I'd really like a breath of fresh air.

Your missing my point. I'm behind a change like this for the end result, not because I have a huge hard-on to race a dirt bike. It's just that this fits my criteria.

Hell, make a motard class! Theres enough out there that if one is made they will come! As its set up now a big single "fits" into classes, but as you know its not truly competitive in such class structures.

Suggest something "different", new, exciting, change of pace, even quirky! I'm up for almost any new class as long as its on the cheaper side and promotes ability, read spec class. 

Whuddya got?

[Super Dave]

Over many years, there have been many classes developed to offer something, as you say, different. 

However, they have yet to prove to have results in bringing entries.  At one time, there were Sportsman classes, and they have all been merged into existing classes, except for Ultra Lightweight Superbike, which would be a class that a 450 motard or derived road racer would be competitive.  That would still allow that bike to be raced in Thunderbike and LWGP.

Again, where are the modified motards? 

It would be cheap, as you claim.


Spec class?  I'm not sure how many times I can talk about an SV650.  It's a reliable, available motorcycle that has been built by Suzuki for ten model years, including the 2008 version.  It has two generations of development, but there are plenty that are competitive from the first generation in the hands of amateur and expert road racers. 

With a plethora of race and OEM parts in the paddock, which is extremely important when you fall down, it's easy to get up and running even between races.  With years and years of development, it is also easy to build, maintain, and modify an SV650 to supersport or thunderbike specifications with a degree of reliability. 

I've seen SV's with all kinds of forks USD, I've seen them with all kinds of wheels, I've seen OEM dampening rod fork internals replaced with R6 cartridge internals, I've seen hand built tube frames, I've seen them with Ducati 999R bodywork...

Flatslides, air boxes, ram air...decide which class you want:  Supersport, Superbike, GP, Thunderbike.  Given that a well ridden SV650 superbike can turn a 1:13 at Blackhawk...well, how far do you want to go.



Back to spec class and cheap.  They are not synonomus. 

[BadBoyRR]

Over many years, there have been many classes developed to offer something, as you say, different. 

However, they have yet to prove to have results in bringing entries.  At one time, there were Sportsman classes, and they have all been merged into existing classes, except for Ultra Lightweight Superbike, which would be a class that a 450 motard or derived road racer would be competitive.  That would still allow that bike to be raced in Thunderbike and LWGP.

Again, where are the modified motards? 

It would be cheap, as you claim.


Spec class?  I'm not sure how many times I can talk about an SV650.  It's a reliable, available motorcycle that has been built by Suzuki for ten model years, including the 2008 version.  It has two generations of development, but there are plenty that are competitive from the first generation in the hands of amateur and expert road racers. 

With a plethora of race and OEM parts in the paddock, which is extremely important when you fall down, it's easy to get up and running even between races.  With years and years of development, it is also easy to build, maintain, and modify an SV650 to supersport or thunderbike specifications with a degree of reliability. 

I've seen SV's with all kinds of forks USD, I've seen them with all kinds of wheels, I've seen OEM dampening rod fork internals replaced with R6 cartridge internals, I've seen hand built tube frames, I've seen them with Ducati 999R bodywork...

Flatslides, air boxes, ram air...decide which class you want:  Supersport, Superbike, GP, Thunderbike.  Given that a well ridden SV650 superbike can turn a 1:13 at Blackhawk...well, how far do you want to go.



Back to spec class and cheap.  They are not synonomus. 

Once again you miss the point.

I remember the sportsman class well and the bikes I raced competitively  there were the SRX, 500 Interceptor, Cagiva and MuZ.

What class is there now where an MuZ, SRX or almost any motard would be competietive??  And "cheap" by the way is open to perception.

SV = UJM = 


The way you argue against any class changes makes me think youre a mole for Kevin and the CCS HQ....

[Super Dave]

I owned and raced an MZ.  As I said before, Ultra Lightweight Superbike.

And then follow exactly what I said for racing up.

The classes exist for the bikes you talk about.  Yet, even though some can be acquired and built "on the cheap", it doesn't happen very often at all.

Do you feel that the CCS class struture is bloated?  What classes have you raced?


As for me being a mole for CCS...LOL! 

[BadBoyRR]

I owned and raced an MZ.  As I said before, Ultra Lightweight Superbike.

And then follow exactly what I said for racing up.

The classes exist for the bikes you talk about.  Yet, even though some can be acquired and built "on the cheap", it doesn't happen very often at all.

Do you feel that the CCS class struture is bloated?  What classes have you raced?


As for me being a mole for CCS...LOL! 

What class would the MuZ be "competitive" in? None! Yes, the classes exist as you say, but as I've pointed out several times, the bikes are not competitive in those classes.

The CCS class structure has always been bloated. Change has always been initiated from within. Kinda like this! In the not too distant future two strokes will be a fading memory and none of the new riders coming in will have any interest in that black art.

Sooo, show me a class that I can race something different in COMPETITIVELY and I'm in!

I tried almost all the lightweight and middle weight classes before I dropped out a few years back.

Let me throw this argument right back at you; what class would a NON-MODIFIED production motard be COMPETITIVE in? I can answer that for you again. NONE!

If I don't want to race a UJM there is no real class available. Oh, unless you wanna go Ducati. But thats a whole nother ball o shite.   

[Headdog122]

You boys started boring me..  When I woke up I was at the bottom of this page and thought I would make a post..!!

Name the weapon and I'll build it...!!  Who would like to see a FZR400 take down the SV..??  Just let me know..  

[Super Dave]

What class would the MuZ be "competitive" in? None! Yes, the classes exist as you say, but as I've pointed out several times, the bikes are not competitive in those classes.

The CCS class structure has always been bloated. Change has always been initiated from within. Kinda like this! In the not too distant future two strokes will be a fading memory and none of the new riders coming in will have any interest in that black art.

Sooo, show me a class that I can race something different in COMPETITIVELY and I'm in!

I tried almost all the lightweight and middle weight classes before I dropped out a few years back.

Let me throw this argument right back at you; what class would a NON-MODIFIED production motard be COMPETITIVE in? I can answer that for you again. NONE!

If I don't want to race a UJM there is no real class available. Oh, unless you wanna go Ducati. But thats a whole nother ball o shite.   

MZ's won CCS Supersingles championships.  MZ's would be fine too now. 

Competitive is a relative term.  A 600cc bike can win middleweight and even unlimited classes.

I feel as though you're confusing classes with the idea of competition.  The classes exist based on the market opportuniities, in addition to various traditions of racing.  BMW's and Ducati's are opportunities if you don't like SV's, FZR's, EX's, etc.  EX500's and FZR400's aren't "competitive" anymore in LWSS, but that's an individual decision.  And don't forget the Buell's.

As for the black art of two strokes...

With the advent of the Red Bull program, I feel like the USGPRU series has seen a good amount of success.  Additionally, the USGPRU has shared some time at AMA Superbike events.  Two strokes are a black art just as much as suspension is.  Some will never understand it, but there are always people that can help you with it.

[Super Dave]

You boys started boring me..  When I woke up I was at the bottom of this page and thought I would make a post..!!

Name the weapon and I'll build it...!!  Who would like to see a FZR400 take down the SV..??  Just let me know.. 

I'm with you. 

I've been working on an H1 two stroke road racer for years.  I'll have to finish it and further ruin any opportunities for motard bikes and go after the SV's too...LOL!

[resurection]

You boys started boring me..  When I woke up I was at the bottom of this page and thought I would make a post..!!

Name the weapon and I'll build it...!!  Who would like to see a FZR400 take down the SV..??  Just let me know..

Over 90hp from FZR400  !!
Boy your talking big .This is not a challenge to your skills I don't even know you but have you built a bike that's competitive in it's own class let alone out of it's class

[EX_#76]

Wow a built FZR!!!

Cool man!!! I don't know what would motivate a person to campain a bike like that, but I would like to see this unfold.  It will take a great bike and rider to do it.

When you get done with your FZR (grenade), see if you can take Key's SB SV down with it. 

Charlie Wright tried about three years ago with a 92 hp FZR, he could not do it. Charlie was a regular top 3 finsher when he was on his SV. 

Jason Temme (also an excellent rider) tried, and to the best of my recollection, never beat Ed on his hopped up FZR, although they did have some great races together.

But I am just here to watch the show, Soooo entertain away!!!  WhoooHooooo!!!

[benprobst]

Ted Cobb seems to do well enough on a motard vs. the fastest SV guys in the country (minus Ed and Arnie).  Maybe its not the bike holding the motards back form being competive against the SV's.