R6 Shocks.

Started by Noidly1, September 30, 2007, 10:56:45 PM

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Noidly1

Here's a good brain stumper...

For the different generation R6's, there seems to be different length shocks within the generations.

Reason for thread; I have a (dated Nov. 2000) 2001 R6 and am looking for a shock.
My shock measures 305mm eye to eye and I need to raise the rear a bit.
It has a 10mm bolt on top and a 12mm bolt on bottom.

There is a guy that has a Penske shock for me that he took out of his '03. 10mm bolt top and bottom.
He says that it is set at 305mm with 5mm thread showing and a max of 12mm showing per manual.

According to Penske, the body on their 2001 shock is larger than all the other years. What gives?

If you know any info, please respond.

Here is what I know so far.

1999 to 2002, 305mm eye to eye, top bolt 10mm, bottom bolt 12mm

2003 to 2005, 295 mm eye to eye, top bolt 10mm, bottom bolt 10mm

2006  290mm
2007, ?

I am stumped...
Any info is appreciated.

Thanks.
'08 R6, CCSGP44EX

Super Dave

The '06 is 290mm center of the eye to center of the eye. 
Super Dave

Team_Serpent

The 2001 and 2003 bikes are totally different models. 

The 2003 shock you speak of sounds like it's ride height adjustable.  Will it work on your bike? Well from the size of the mounting bolts it sounds like it won't.

I'm not sure what info you're looking for - the only question I see in you post is "According to Penske, the body on their 2001 shock is larger than all the other years. What gives?"

There are variances in shock design from generation to generation (of the same model bike).  These differences are needed to produce a shock that will work best for that particular generation/model.

From what I remember the 2001 already had pretty steep rake and trail numbers, why do you think you need to raise the rear?


Noidly1

#3
Bike doesn't want to lean and comes out wide and it was draggin the back of the pan at Gateway's transitions.
'08 R6, CCSGP44EX

Super Dave

Too much rebound in back?  Too little compression?  What spring rate do you have in back?  What spring rate do you have in front?  Too little rebound up front? 
Super Dave

Super Dave

QuoteTires;
Front, 120/70 ZR17 Pilot Race H2 28-29 cold. 34 hot
Rear, 180/55 ZR 17 Pilot Race Plain 26 cold. 31 hot

Ok, I got this from the MCRA site, and it won't let me post there.

Your front tire is an H2.  That is not a current Pilot Race tire.  That is a Michelin street tire.  The tires in that series that were used on the race track were the M2 and S2.  The tire pressure used in those tires was 32. 

Your rear tire?  Well, does is say Pilot Race on it?  It will have a designation of which tire it is.  Med, Soft...maybe 3/4/5...Maybe S2 or something.  If it's actually a Michelin Pilot Race, you should be running 22 psi.  If it's an S2/H2 (yes, the H2 was a race tire for the rear/M2, you run 28 in that tire.
Super Dave

tstruyk

Quote from: Team_Serpent on October 01, 2007, 06:16:22 PM
The 2001 and 2003 bikes are totally different models. 

The 2003 shock you speak of sounds like it's ride height adjustable.  Will it work on your bike? Well from the size of the mounting bolts it sounds like it won't.

I'm not sure what info you're looking for - the only question I see in you post is "According to Penske, the body on their 2001 shock is larger than all the other years. What gives?"

There are variances in shock design from generation to generation (of the same model bike).  These differences are needed to produce a shock that will work best for that particular generation/model.

From what I remember the 2001 already had pretty steep rake and trail numbers, why do you think you need to raise the rear?



I think what he is getting at is Penske's are modular, in most applications the shock mounts can be changed or modified to fit other years.  Example I sold my Penske off my 02 to a guy with an 04.  Cost me $35 or so in parts (labor was nothing as I had it serviced and the proper spring thrown on there as part of the sale).  i think his concern is when he called penkse they informed him that particular year the body was actually a different length...

CCS GP/ASRA  #85
2010 Sponsors: Lithium Motorsports, Probst Brothers Racing, Suspension Solutions, Pirelli, SBS, Vortex

"It is incredible what a rider filled with irrational desire can accomplish"

Team_Serpent

Quote from: Noidly1 on October 01, 2007, 11:18:12 PM
Bike doesn't want to lean and comes out wide and it was draggin the back of the pan at Gateway's transitions.

I know it's hard to describe handling issues on a message board and there are so many variables that one question can sometimes lead to many - hence Dave's post -

Quote from: Super Dave on October 02, 2007, 08:00:11 AM
Too much rebound in back?  Too little compression?  What spring rate do you have in back?  What spring rate do you have in front?  Too little rebound up front? 

These are all great questions but really you need to start at the beginning.  I don't know the history of the bike, and I'm not sure why but I have a sneaky suspicion that there are a lot of things going on with this bike.  My recommendation would be to go back to stock ride height for front and rear.  Have a professional suspension expert (I recommend Thermosman) make sure the forks have all the correct parts/oil in them and that the clickers are at a good base setting, also have the rear shock done.  Check and set sag.

Now you will at least have a good base starting point and you may very well have solved your issues.

Dave also notes a post (which I assume is yours) from another board, regarding tires.  Sounds like there is some confusion there as well.  Take what ever you have off and put on a new proper set of rubber and get the correct pressures form the trackside vendor you purchased them through.

If all of this is done and you still have issues please pay attention to what the bike is doing on:

Corner Entry
Mid Corner
Corner Exit

The reason for these three areas is because I can not tell from your post if you are having trouble running wide mid-corner or corner exit.  Or where in the turning process the bike is not leaning.


Quote from: tstruyk on October 02, 2007, 10:35:02 AM
I think what he is getting at is Penske's are modular, in most applications the shock mounts can be changed or modified to fit other years.  Example I sold my Penske off my 02 to a guy with an 04.  Cost me $35 or so in parts (labor was nothing as I had it serviced and the proper spring thrown on there as part of the sale).  i think his concern is when he called penkse they informed him that particular year the body was actually a different length...

Gottcha - just my opinion on this - buy the right shock for the bike and stop monkeying around with a bunch of mickey mouse shit.  By the time your done messing with all that crap how much did you really save and do you really have the best set-up? (hope that didn't sound to harsh)





tstruyk

Quote from: Team_Serpent on October 02, 2007, 11:57:10 AM
Gottcha - just my opinion on this - buy the right shock for the bike and stop monkeying around with a bunch of mickey mouse shit.  By the time your done messing with all that crap how much did you really save and do you really have the best set-up? (hope that didn't sound to harsh)

assuming the bodies are different... agreed.  But if the same it expands the market for a used shock quite a bit. 
CCS GP/ASRA  #85
2010 Sponsors: Lithium Motorsports, Probst Brothers Racing, Suspension Solutions, Pirelli, SBS, Vortex

"It is incredible what a rider filled with irrational desire can accomplish"

Team_Serpent

Quote from: tstruyk on October 02, 2007, 12:01:17 PM
But if the same it expands the market for a used shock quite a bit. 

Agreed

Noidly1

#10
Where to begin?

I've been out of the racing scene for 12 years, Used to run in WERA C-Superbike on my FZR400/600. Got a couple of seconds even... The bike had the stock suspension except for fork springs and handled well. All the years I've been out I have never touched it, just rode it on the street.

Recently decided to get back in to racing and took the coarse back in June.
While navigating the track I noticed that the bike was soft and flat. Kept draggin stuff that never dragged B4. so I had some one check it out and they said that the suspension was shot. Well in 12 years of street riding I never noticed...

Anyhow, I coninued to ride it throughout the day and while down shifting from 6th to 5th I heard a chunk and thought it was the dogs a poppin. No big deal, So I thought...
A couple days later I decided to do some mods, swap pipes, drop the oil pan and clean the screen Out comes 2 teeth, rats...

Since the bike was out, I decided it was time for an upgrade.

Well, I got this bike, an '01 R6, from the son of the shop manager at Donelson's here in StL. You may know him, Tommy Perino. AM#341. He's got a Duc now. The bike has been sittin for a year in his basement and was kinda busted up. Last time the guy raced it, he lowsided it and when it hit the grass, the peg hooked and it flipped breaking the lower left sub tab off and some other minor damage. The bike was fixed up, all except the tab. I rode it that way Sunday with no ill effects. Last friday I had it welded up, good as new.

Anyhow, I bought it the Sat B4 last track day and never got a chance to ride it cause I was busy getting it ready for Sunday and loading up all the usual crap.

Sunday I hunted down KrazyMike and asked him to give the bike an innitial setup which he did. The bike rode well enough, suspension wise, but did not handle the way it should have. The rear shock is Stock. The forks are Stock and couldn't tell you about the springs inside.

The tires are;
Pilot Race H2 Front, must be a couple years old 28 cold 34 hot
Regular Pilot Race Rear 26 cold 31 hot
I used warmers all day set at 70-72 cel.

As I was going around the track Sunday, I noticed that the bike flicked well, like my FZR400/600, but refused to lean in and kept running wide on exits...  And it was dragging the back of the pan at the transitions.
For the life of me i just couldn't get my puck down till the end of the day when I finally did..

Now, one thing to consider is the fact that I didn't know the bike and that since I never ran those tires and that they were old, I could not trust them, so I ran a bit slow in the turns all the while still smoking the beginners around the outside...

After going through the forums I had heard that a lot of guys run their aftermarket shocks at 310mm. My stock shock is 305. My forks are about 20mm up.
Judging the pics I've seen the front is high and the rear is low. Also Iv'e heard that the pointy front tire may be causing some of the probs too...

Speaking of forums, I have several threads on this bike and my problems in several forums. It is getting VERY HARD to keep track of all of them. It's driving me crazy...

I can go on n on, finger is starting to hurt. and someone just posted B4 this and I gotta post this and read it.

Next?
'08 R6, CCSGP44EX

Team_Serpent

Sounds like to me you've answered your own questions and just don't know it.

I'm not sure I can help, sorry - good luck




Noidly1

Hey Everybody;

Just to let everyone know, I got the most needed shock on my bike. Wow, that extra height helped out a lot. I measured it at 312 as received and lowered it down to 310 to start off with and left it there for the day. The bike drove out of the turns much better.
I think I need to bring it back up to 312 or more cause the drive out of the corner could be tighter.

I tell ya, the bike was TOTALLY DIFFERENT from last month... I had to relearn it all over. As the day went on, I made small adjustments and noticed their effects.

I had to take out one turn of preload to get a little more sag. I may need to take out one more, not sure, need more track time... But if I do, then I think I will need to raise the back up more to compensate.

I love the fact that I can make comp and rebound adjustments with my fingers and not have to mess with tools. Very Nice...

The shock was a "GodSend"...

Not only did I swap out the shock but, I also installed new Omni springs in front. That made a big difference as well. I followed the instructions per Traxxion as to figure out shim height but ended up having to change to shorter ones at lunch to get more sag. That helped some on tip in.

With my weight w/gear, I was border-line as to what springs to get, so I got 2 sets, .90's and .95's to get .925. One each in each fork. That being said, even with having that combo, sag wasn't quite right. I put a zip-tie on the fork at lunch and after a couple sessions I noticed that I was only using 2 inches of travel. My guess is that I need to swap out the .95 spring and run .90's in both forks. I had the fork height set at 26mm and think I need to raise them some more to get better lean.

One thing I noticed was that a pound of air pressure in front makes a big difference in the way the bike handles. I had 32psi front and 30psi rear cold. The bike cut in very well with the combo I had, however, when I dropped the front 2psi to get a little more traction in front, the bike felt lazy and didn't want to lean all the way over so when I came in I added
1psi back to the front and it did better.

Question; If I want to get more traction in front by lowering the air pressure and it makes the front lazy, can I lower the fork height to make it cut in better to compensate for the difference in air pressure or will that throw things off?

Another thing, what is the effect on handling is an air pressure change in the rear? Haven't done that yet, just wondering...
'08 R6, CCSGP44EX