NEED HELP! F2'S IN LIGHTWEIGHT CLASSES!

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Screw it. Lets just go to a 2 race system.

Sat. 8-11am practice. 12-4 1 race, every bike.
Sunday, the same.

[backMARKr]

Screw it. Lets just go to a 2 race system.

Sat. 8-11am practice. 12-4 1 race, every bike.
Sunday, the same.

I wonder how much the race entry fee will rise when every track has to buy a fleet of helicopters......

[F2RGK]

I know what you guys are after, but if you change rules you have to account for the extreme that someone will take it to.  If you do not think of these things, you most likely will not get a rules or class change.  I was not trying to implement a HP to weight class.  I was trying to use an SV SB HP to weight to establish some sort of performance bench mark, and some guide lines on how far the F2 can or can't be modified.  I know of one person who has a claimend 115HP F2.  So my statements were to try and prevent this sort of thing from occurring.  I keep seeing references to stock HP and weight numbers.  Does this mean the the F2 crowd would be willing to conform to SS rules in all the new classes that they are allowed into?  Kinda sounds like they might be at a performance deficit against the front running SB SVs, Buels, and Ducs.  My point is if the F2s are allowed to enter the LWSB classes that the bike could be modified enough to be a real advantage, thus disturbing some of the equality that everyone wants.   Please do not take this the wrong way but, the statement that you are trying to keep this inexpensive seems to be invalid.  You can buy a race prepped first gen SV for under $3000.00 (there is one on the forum right now for $1800.00) as apposed to a $2500.00 F2 that is not much of a difference, so that approach will not help your cause much.  They also very crash friendly, and fit the current rules structure.   I understand that some people just want to race something different than an SV, Buel or Duc.  So to get a change you have to come up with a set of reasonable ground rules and present it to CCS.  That is what I was trying to open a dialog on.  Believe me I would really like to see the F2s in more classes.  So I am trying to help your cause.  To do that I am playing a little bit of the devils advocate.  I am not attempting to cause arguments, just good discussion.

Guy,

No argument taken at all.  This is why I am asking the questions.  So far, I take it that everyone agrees to let it in LWSB, which is fine.  That is all I am looking for.  I agree with alot of things everyone has said.  However, I do disagree on some things.  That is my opinion and option just like everyone else's.  SuperDave, you rock...good points made and taken.  This thread is going a long way so I guess I sparked some interest since it's a plausible cause.  In my definition to keep costs down, I love my F2, it fit's me.  I can tell you this, I would never put Marchesini wheels on it or lighten the flywheel, remove the charging system etc. to lose weight to make this bike some superbike.  I know what I've spent on my bike, I am like an Ed Key in that respect; however, I knew when to quit....it's still a turd and it's 20 years old!!! 

[123user]

I've heard of "bumping up" a class, but trying to "bump down"? Its a stretch at best.  Racing is not about affordabilty or fairness.  (note the devil's advocate), but its just ridiculous to try to change the rules to race down a class.

If I had an F2 in good condition, I'd restore it and put it in my basement.  I would look good next to my 1977 XL100 and my '88 Hawk.   

The point is: move on!  Racing is a dynamic sport.  If you want to be competetive, buy the new hotness.  If you want to ride an antique, don't piss and moan about fairness,  if you just want to complain... your in the right place!

[backMARKr]

  if you just want to complain... your in the right place!

amen.....

[HAWK]

I've been watching this thread for a while and I have to agree with 123user, I bought a Hawk and took it racing to see if I wanted to do this. Well, I did, so I bought an SV to be competitive in LW. The Hawk is no longer a competitive bike but it was fun and I moved on to a more modern bike. Guy's points are very valid. I understand that you have no intention of making the mods that he listed but the rule has to cover all possibilties so regardless of what you might want to do it is important to recognize what someone COULD do when creating the rule. Keep in mind Kevin's viewpoint and address the issues that Guy mentioned when you think about this proposal, furthermore keep in mind that you can get onto an SV very inexpensively and be competitive within the existing rule structure.

[123user]

Paul,

Yeah, we both cut our teeth on a hawk, now I've got a fast bike... and drag my A** But your use of the word "modern" is suspect.    We both know that a hawk is more "modern" than either a buell or aircooled duc in every aspect except suspension. 

The Erion Brothers NT650 effort (quite imfamously) bent every rule they could, and took the AMA twins class by suprise... but the bike did fit within the existing class structure.  The "hawkolution" of the lightweight classes in the earlier 90's was different however than the question at hand.  The F2 doesn't meet the spirit of the rules.  Changing the rules to accomodate one machine is silly.  There only two logical reasons to run a F2 in LW:

1.  You already own one, and can't afford a new ride
2.  You DO intend to take advantage of its superiority

I can't help with #1,  #2 is pretty obvious.  Having an emotional attachment to a bike and wanting to be competetive are two totally opposite feelings.  As scarce as nice F2's (and parts) are becoming, destitute racers would be better to sell their F2 and buy a more "disposable" machine.

[F2RGK]

Ok, here I sit and read the last 3 pages of posts only to bang my head against a wall!   First, who said anything about trying to change all of the rules to let an F2 in LWSB other than letting it in?  Heck, delete a class and make a new one!  Heaven knows we allready have too many middleweight classes.  Secondly, for the guy who is giving multiple reasons to move on or be Dynamic....I've owned a fricken motorcycle store for the last 10 years, so the affordability question is out!  Thirdly, some of you who post comments on here better read the last few pages as well because some of you are commenting on something that has already been discussed.  Again, my whole point is too let it in LWSB because it can be, and it gives another class to run other than Thunderbike with an F2.  Screw the scarce parts dilemma, the heavy bike dilemma, old bike dilemma, love of a bike dilemma, moving on dilemma, or whatever else you can come up with.  At this point, I'm ready to pick an SV off my floor and build it for next year to really make you scream, then what?   This post generated over 1600 views, so obviously there needs to be a change somewhere!   

[Ridgeway]

An F2 being comparable in performance to a LW bike does not make it a LW bike.  Period.

Using that logic, the Roberts clan should be able to run their GP bike in WSBK.  As far as the actual rule modification goes, do you really expect the rules for LWSB to be modified with a "P.S. Honda F2's are allowed"?

[F2RGK]

An F2 being comparable in performance to a LW bike does not make it a LW bike.  Period.

Using that logic, the Roberts clan should be able to run their GP bike in WSBK.  As far as the actual rule modification goes, do you really expect the rules for LWSB to be modified with a "P.S. Honda F2's are allowed"?

Ok, who said anything about Moto GP?  So I bet you consider a Buell a LW bike as well, even at 130hp because it is a twin cylinder?  Everyone is forgetting one thing.... SV's and Buell's can run in Thunderbike but an F2 cannot enter into in ANY LW classes and I stress the word ANY!  You can throw the rule book at me all you want, but  the fact is there is an unfairness here somewhere.  P.J. is an awesome guy and rider with his Buell making better times than any F2 rider I know of.  Ed Key is doing the same on an SV.  They both get to ride in both classes LW and Tbike.  I would think this over rules any controversy over the HP limit of the F2.

[PJ]

Hey Ron, good discussion.

Thanks for the kind words. But I just want to set the record straight; there are no LW legal 130 HP Buells.

The fact is that my Buell is built to LW Superbike rules (stock displacement). It's a reliable, competitive package. And I bump up into Thunderbike and SuperTwins to chase Buell money.

Perhaps the rules could be written to allow the F2 into more LW races without upsetting the balance of a very competitive and diverse class, but I worry that sets the stage for LW to become the dumping ground for every non-current 600 in the future.

The reason that Thunderbike allows F2s is because the class rules were first designed as a "Heavyweight Sportsman" class. The name was later changed, but the spirit remains.

[Super Dave]

At this point, I'm ready to pick an SV off my floor and build it for next year to really make you scream, then what?   This post generated over 1600 views, so obviously there needs to be a change somewhere!   

At this point, in the Midwest, Ed Key already has that.  Built motors, lightened everything, even a custom GP chassis.  Add a very technically oriented rider...

I don't know if anyone could say that 1600 views means that change is needed.  One could say that some are looking for some opportunities...

1.  You already own one, and can't afford a new ride
2.  You DO intend to take advantage of its superiority

I don't own one anymore, but I raced one for two years.  I won a lot of races, contingency, and championships.  I know what it can do for lap times with tires from the early 90's no less.  When it became Thunderbike legal, I know that when ever I see one go up for sale, I do take a hard look.