NEED HELP! F2'S IN LIGHTWEIGHT CLASSES!

[Super Dave]

This thread also talks about keeping cost down, limiting mods will do just that

What does everyone think?

My F2 weighed in at 410# going across the AMA scales in 1993.  Stock wheels, rotors, etc.

As for limiting mods...

How confusing do we want to make it? 

Ed can do a 1:13 at Blackhawk with what he has.  I don't see why a Supersport F2 can't do a 1:12 now, ridden well. 

[Super Dave]

Dave, I see your point!  Any ideas?

Oh, boy...

Three tier system.

True amateurs, sportsman, and expert.

Sportsman can have a butt load of classes.  Much like what CCS has now.  Maybe a couple more, what ever.  Contingency offered, no purse, points for overall championships, etc.

Amateur.  A class for actual new racers.  Give them 18 months or something of opportunities to hone some skills before putting them in Sportsman.  You'll have classes based only on basic displacement, not on mods.  No trophies, no contingency.  It could end up developing racers from a racing stand point rather than having them feel as though they need to do track days for two to three years before racing.  Maybe three classes.  Lightweight, Middleweight, Open

Expert.  Higher fees, a little longer races, no trophies.  Some kind of purse system.  Reduction in classes. 

Some experts and a lot of amateurs would fit into the sportsman class.  More offering of opportunities for the fun part of it and unique classes.  Expert would be more for the current production stuff.  Yeah, there would  be classes for various bikes and their performance basis, but you wouldn't have F40 or ULSB.  Making sense?

I've given it thought, but not a ton.

[EX_#76]

Guy,

That is all fine and dandy but we do have a rule for the HP to weight issue already in place.  105hp would be way over the mark to be legal in that respect (not too mention high dollars to get that).  I am not even referring to building the bike excessively.  I have made the comments earlier that the F2 is an inexpensive bike to purchase at first, setup is relatively cheap, if you crash it, no worries because it's crash worthy, and in stock form it's competetive at roughly 85-90hp in stock form, and it attracts more people to race at the beginner level so the street squid won't feel intimidated.  I want to try and grow the sport, get people off the street and onto the track.  By adding one more class would help that other than Thunderbike,  even if we have to make one up.   

I know what you guys are after, but if you change rules you have to account for the extreme that someone will take it to.  If you do not think of these things, you most likely will not get a rules or class change.  I was not trying to implement a HP to weight class.  I was trying to use an SV SB HP to weight to establish some sort of performance bench mark, and some guide lines on how far the F2 can or can't be modified.  I know of one person who has a claimend 115HP F2.  So my statements were to try and prevent this sort of thing from occurring.  I keep seeing references to stock HP and weight numbers.  Does this mean the the F2 crowd would be willing to conform to SS rules in all the new classes that they are allowed into?  Kinda sounds like they might be at a performance deficit against the front running SB SVs, Buels, and Ducs.  My point is if the F2s are allowed to enter the LWSB classes that the bike could be modified enough to be a real advantage, thus disturbing some of the equality that everyone wants.   Please do not take this the wrong way but, the statement that you are trying to keep this inexpensive seems to be invalid.  You can buy a race prepped first gen SV for under $3000.00 (there is one on the forum right now for $1800.00) as apposed to a $2500.00 F2 that is not much of a difference, so that approach will not help your cause much.  They also very crash friendly, and fit the current rules structure.   I understand that some people just want to race something different than an SV, Buel or Duc.  So to get a change you have to come up with a set of reasonable ground rules and present it to CCS.  That is what I was trying to open a dialog on.  Believe me I would really like to see the F2s in more classes.  So I am trying to help your cause.  To do that I am playing a little bit of the devils advocate.  I am not attempting to cause arguments, just good discussion.

[EX_#76]

My F2 weighed in at 410# going across the AMA scales in 1993.  Stock wheels, rotors, etc.

As for limiting mods...

How confusing do we want to make it? 

Ed can do a 1:13 at Blackhawk with what he has.  I don't see why a Supersport F2 can't do a 1:12 now, ridden well. 

Agreed Dave!!  My comments are to allow the F2 into all LW classes except SS and limit the allowable mods so someone can not create an overly dominant F2.  I guarantee you that if got my hands on an F2 I could take 50 to 75# off of it and add allot of hp under the current rules structure for LWSB.  Loose the charging system and buy magnesium wheels and I have removed 30 to 40#.  Cams porting and carbs has to add at least 15hp.  So lets work on some reasonable F2 limitations and go from there

Guy

[Super Dave]

But doing that puts you in Middleweight terrritory, which it's already in...

[xseal]

Oh, boy...

Three tier system.

True amateurs, sportsman, and expert.

Sportsman can have a butt load of classes.  Much like what CCS has now.  Maybe a couple more, what ever.  Contingency offered, no purse, points for overall championships, etc.

Amateur.  A class for actual new racers.  Give them 18 months or something of opportunities to hone some skills before putting them in Sportsman.  You'll have classes based only on basic displacement, not on mods.  No trophies, no contingency.  It could end up developing racers from a racing stand point rather than having them feel as though they need to do track days for two to three years before racing.  Maybe three classes.  Lightweight, Middleweight, Open

Expert.  Higher fees, a little longer races, no trophies.  Some kind of purse system.  Reduction in classes. 

Some experts and a lot of amateurs would fit into the sportsman class.  More offering of opportunities for the fun part of it and unique classes.  Expert would be more for the current production stuff.  Yeah, there would  be classes for various bikes and their performance basis, but you wouldn't have F40 or ULSB.  Making sense?

I've given it thought, but not a ton.

TRuthfully, this is about how I see it:
- amateur = CCS amateur
- sportsman = CCS expert
- expert = ASRA

I think, as a practical matter, its pretty close to what you describe as optimal.

[Ducmarc]

so if you run asra does that exempt you from cherry picking sportsmen and while we are at it can we squeeze my 748 into GTLights you all know they're junk and I promise I won't make over 100hp

[Super Dave]

LOL! 

Yeah, +1.

How about I run my SV1000 in GTL.  It's heavy and slow too. 

[HAWK]

LOL! 

Yeah, +1.

How about I run my SV1000 in GTL.  It's heavy and slow too. 

Slow is OK but no heavy bikes in GTL.

[Ducmarc]

BTW Dave thanks for the heads up on the bone pills my therapist and doc. are impressed with my progress 6mos. after surgery. i tell everybody about them.and we have had this disscusion about 3 classes before but no one's listening. you comming to Daytona ? that's my home track. i'll be there racing or not . and light is a relative term.  Marc

[Super Dave]

Hey, no problem!  Glad they worked for you.

No Daytona for me.  I'm going to the Suzuki Cup Final, with the heavy,slow bike, and then I have a school on the 22nd.  So, the school kind of cuts my opportunity for Daytona, but I get to work with Hawk.   

[HAWK]

Hey, no problem!  Glad they worked for you.

No Daytona for me.  I'm going to the Suzuki Cup Final, with the heavy,slow bike, and then I have a school on the 22nd.  So, the school kind of cuts my opportunity for Daytona, but I get to work with Hawk.  

Or what's left of him anyway.