NEED HELP! F2'S IN LIGHTWEIGHT CLASSES!

[F2RGK]

I agree!  Anyone have any problems with starting a new class or bringing a new one back?  We could use a Vintage Class...If you want to call it that, however, I think we can be a little more creative. 

[roadracer162]

F2RGK,

I know your point but you have a funny way of saying it. I vote for the F2 in LW GP and LW SB but not eh SS stuff. Your argument is not convincing when you say that you take a stock F2 and beat up on Ducs, Buells and the other LW guys. Others have made the point that those LW guys are stepping up a class to race Thunderbike.

The classes are kinda screwy for the odd ball bikes such as the F2, FZR600 and even the 250 GP bike. Karl (#57) runs a TZ250 in the LW GP that incidentally the F2 is not allowed to run, but then is not able to run LW F40 that the F2 does. Instead he has to run the HW F40. Just one of the quirks of the rules that won't ever be addressed.

Mark

[F2RGK]

yeah, I see your point...!  I haven't been around long enough to know all of the details or all of my options, that's why i am including other's inputs to keep me straight!  It's all good!!  One thing i've noticed, and tell me if I'm wrong....but some of these classes you are referring too don't exist in the Midwest region!

[Ridgeway]

Allow the F2 into the LW classes - Yes or No?

No.  A liquid-cooled I-4 600 is not a LW bike regardless of age.  I disagree with the displacement advantage given to the Duc's and Buell's as well, but I'll concede that the competetion is close-enough to leave things as they are in that regard.

I like that the LW class has a wide variety of machinery, but I think it's important that LW maintains its position as a (relatively) low-cost class to run.  If it gets to the point where people feel the need to invest $15k + to have a reasonably competetive LW bike, then I think a lot of the advantages of running LW start to go away.

[George_Linhart]

I think it's important that LW maintains its position as a (relatively) low-cost class to run.  If it gets to the point where people feel the need to invest $15k + to have a reasonably competetive LW bike, then I think a lot of the advantages of running LW start to go away.

Somebody had better tell this to Ed Key.  Does anybody have a guess as to what it would cost to duplicate either his SS or his SB?  If you think about the design time and custom fabrication in his bikes and put a $ figure on it I think it would be pretty insane.

There is no avoiding the fact that racing is expensive in any class but a good rider will generally be the biggest advantage.  In the long run I know that I would have been better off spending money on racing schools and additional track time instead of building a superbike.  That said - my time is very limited and it is easier for me to blow cash on trick parts than to be able to be at the track constantly.

How about this - if we really wanted a low cost racing option there could be some sort of claimer class.  No limitation on type of equipment or set-up (beyond safety) - however - after any race the top 5 finishing bikes would be available to be "claimed" for some set price (say $2,000) by any other competitor that finished the race.  This would really create an interesting mix of equipment while discouraging anybody from spending their way to the front of the pack.  I bet you would see some strange and interesting conbinaitons of bikes in the field.

Just my $0.02.

George

[Ridgeway]

Somebody had better tell this to Ed Key.  Does anybody have a guess as to what it would cost to duplicate either his SS or his SB?  If you think about the design time and custom fabrication in his bikes and put a $ figure on it I think it would be pretty insane.

There is no avoiding the fact that racing is expensive in any class but a good rider will generally be the biggest advantage.  In the long run I know that I would have been better off spending money on racing schools and additional track time instead of building a superbike.  That said - my time is very limited and it is easier for me to blow cash on trick parts than to be able to be at the track constantly.

How about this - if we really wanted a low cost racing option there could be some sort of claimer class.  No limitation on type of equipment or set-up (beyond safety) - however - after any race the top 5 finishing bikes would be available to be "claimed" for some set price (say $2,000) by any other competitor that finished the race.  This would really create an interesting mix of equipment while discouraging anybody from spending their way to the front of the pack.  I bet you would see some strange and interesting conbinaitons of bikes in the field.

Just my $0.02.

George

I guess my definition of competetive is to reasonably expect to be mid-pack or better provided the riding skill is there.  Ed works within the existing rules.  If you allowed F2's, how much higher does the potential-performance ceiling go, say if Ed were to work his magic on one of those?

As far as keeping costs down, I'd love to see a spec-class someting like the SV-Cup that they had in Canada for awhile.  Maybe a Ninja250 cup based on the new version that just came out.  Only allowable mods could be suspension and brakes.  Could start with a brand new bike and be race ready for around $5k?

Problem is, to make the class worth running, one 8 lap sprint per weekend isn't going to cut it.

Honestly, the number of classes really needs to be reduced in favor of longer races.  I think CCS is too accomodating in trying to allow just about any bike to be competetive in a class.  Reducing the classes, and making the races longer, (with the associated rise in entry fee), should make for bigger grids, better competetion, and better spectator understanding of how the whole thing works.  Having 20+ classes running over the course of a weekend is nuts.

[George_Linhart]

Honestly, the number of classes really needs to be reduced in favor of longer races.  I think CCS is too accomodating in trying to allow just about any bike to be competetive in a class. 

Very true - but who's classes do you cut?  That is where it gets tricky.

Back to the point of the original post.  If you add F2's to the LW grids it won't change the result of the mid-pack rider.  Back of the pack rider - yes - mid pack, not so much.  If you look at the Thunderbike results in the Mid West you see a few of the SS SV's right in there without any problems.  I haven't followed the AM class to closely - but - I believe that Ron's success this year is the result of his sandbagging and keeping the yellow plates while all of his competition from last year moved on up to expert (the obvious names that come to mind are Bartz, Utek, Soleo, me...).

I look forward to seeing Ron with white plates next year so we can race again!  If it is just in Thunderbike, so be it, but I've got no issues gridding up with him in LWGP, GT Lights or LW SB.

George

[Ridgeway]

Very true - but who's classes do you cut?  That is where it gets tricky

Merging SB and GP rules would be a good start.  It's most of the same people in both anyway.  I normally run 4-5 classes per weekend, and the grids are made up of the same people in just about all of them, with the exception of LWSS, where many can't run.  Now that the GT's don't pay, maybe eliminate those.  Positions are pretty well decided by the 3/4 mark in the GT's anyway.  Run SS once, and the newly merged SB/GP class twice in a weekend?  12-15 lap races?  Maybe get creative and invert the top 10 for the 2nd race?  Consolidate contingency payouts and put on a better show?  If CCS put more emphasis on Racing and less on Club, it would make the sport more attractive to sponsors and would be easier to promote.

I think 3 competitive races per weight class per event is a good number, provided the races are long enough to make the trip worth it.  1 SS and 2 SB per weight class would keep the rules simple and the playing field relatively level.  Throw in a combined 125/250GP race and a Sportsman/F40 class for a little extra flavor.

Regarding the F2 question, I don't know that modifying the LW rules to add 1 or 2 bikes to a grid are worth opening the door to making LW yet another I-4 600 dominated class in the future.  If LW becomes the place for 10 year old MW's to go race, it's not really LW anymore is it?  It really becomes Sportsman at that point.

[powersport15]

As a new F2 rider for the ''08'' season, I would love to see the F2 LWSB legal..   I raced a 750 Ducati in other years on and off and had fun and did pretty well.   I went with the F2 for the price and reliability, and thats it..   Just my opinion.   Thanks, Lon

[Ducmarc]

how about a steel frame class? of course that makes the sv illegal and we can't have that!

[roadracer162]

yeah, I see your point...!  I haven't been around long enough to know all of the details or all of my options, that's why i am including other's inputs to keep me straight!  It's all good!!  One thing i've noticed, and tell me if I'm wrong....but some of these classes you are referring too don't exist in the Midwest region!

According to the schedule there are the same classes, just the size of the field may be different. All the LW grids are pretty full in the Florida Region. Even the F40 classes see a bunch of bikes on track at the same time, although we have both HW and LW with EX/AM split. It is a lot of fun.

Thunderbike I find it difficult to keep up with the young guys and their 100 HP bikes. Every bike I am against in that class runs away from me on the top end, then there is G. Rick who is ultra-fast on his Ducati, and Chris Boy another local fast guy, then Fuentes has found newfound speed on his Duc 748.

[SKRacing]

Ben I will put any one of my 435lb 95hp f2's up on yours. I dont see you running all over Cantu.

Stop whining and race!!!