NEED HELP! F2'S IN LIGHTWEIGHT CLASSES!

[benprobst]

Does this mean you're scared?

No it doesnt mean im scared. There arent any lightweight amatuers in CCS im scared of, hell there arent any in the country, no matter what leightweight bike they're on. What it means is its an inline 4 cylinder motorcycle that easily makes 100hp and is currently illegal, and should remain that way. I think they are allowed in F40 to help grid sizes. Old guys like old bikes, and they want a class they can be competitive in on an uncompetitve motorcycle. I also do not think the DUC1000 should be allowed in SS. I race WERA, the 1000 are not allowed in SS, and must run SS trim in all other SB classes. I think thats how it should be. I think the 1000 is in the LW class just like why the BMW was in the LW class, a company built a motorcycle that fit within the current rules and was the fastest. Sadly for both 1000 owners and F2 owners, rules tend to progress not digress, so I think the 1000 will be moved out of SS soon, and the F2 will remain as it is, obsolete.

[Super Dave]

Doesn't LWF40 allow Tbike rules?  That's why the F2 is allowed in LWF40.  Someone could run a Superbike CB900F with 130HP if they wanted too. 

As for the Ducati site saying how much HP their bike makes...those claims are from the crank, not the rear wheel.

[benprobst]

As for the Ducati site saying how much HP their bike makes...those claims are from the crank, not the rear wheel.

Right, and from what I have seen, most bike in true SS race trim make about what the factories "claim" their bikes make stock.

[George_Linhart]

Ben,

Back to our old argument.  I think technology progresses and the rules catch up later.  Isn't that why the SV has become THE spec LW bike.  Remember when the LW class was for the 400cc inline 4s and the Honda Hawk (a 3 valve 650 cc V-twin which was on par with the 400's)?  Then Suzuki builds a Liquid cooled 4 valve V-twin which is legal - they take over the class.  Shouldn't the rules have been re-written because the SV was so much better than the FZR400 or the Hawk?  No, technology progresses, it was a legal bike and took over the class.

That Mongo wants to keep the SV guys reasonably happy and handicaps the Ducati is a WERA issue.  I like the current CCS rule structure better and its the reason I decided not to renew my WERA license.

I'm looking forward for your exit from LW and your entry into the big bike class just so you will stop whining about the Ducati's and Buells that are so unfair racing against you.  You know, for all your complaining, your superbike SV puts out more power and weighs 70 lbs less than my Superbike Ducati.  Its not the bike Ben - its the rider.

George

[roadracer162]

Someone could run a Superbike CB900F with 130HP if they wanted too. 

That would be cool wouldn't it?? Maybe I will try it.

Mark

[benprobst]

Hey George, I knew it wouldnt be long before you came.   The truth is, I almost never complain about racing against the Ducs or the Buells. I race a superbike SV, if your a half way decent mechanic and race bike builder, the SV's are nearly every bit as potent as the Ducs and Buells. I normally just support that the Ducs/Buells should not be allowed into SS. My motorcycle has probably 13 - 16 thousand dollars in it total (at new bike price), and it runs competitivly with 8-9 thousand dollar Ducs.

And yes, I hear your argument about the ole' 400's and what not. And I guess its a good point, the SV's advantage over the FZR's was similar to the Ducs and Buells over the SV. I guess the thing that just really sticks out is the sv's only have an additional 150cc, while the Ducs have 350 and the Buells have damn near 600cc.

I guess my question would be, what HP did GOOD SS FZR's make back in the day?

As for your motorcycle, If you are making less horsepower than my SV, you need to go back to race bike building school. Because with a pipe, good mapping, and above average fuel your should be making at least the same as my bike and probably 5 - 6 more. Thats not even with doing the mildest of SS builds. And yes, the weight is the primary advantage to the SV's sadly at most of the important tracks ( national implications ) the lack of weight isnt a deciding factor in top speed, and the enourmous amounts of torque the big slugs give the Buells and Ducs its hard to make it all up on acceleration.

Aside from that, nice talking to you as always George, you always bring good points to the table, even if like mine they tend to be the same all the time   Looking forward to the next LW legal/illegal thread already  

[123user]

The lightweight class structure is perfect.  I doubt adding F2's would change the podiums much, but a properly built SS f2/f3 will really cook.  FTZ in cape girardeau builds 100+ HP F2's that would probably pass wera tech. 

CCS has been successful by being inclusive.  WERA however has not seen any growth in the last 10 years.  Wera splits hairs over meaningless issue and have become more like NASCAR than a club racing organization.

If it means more racers, more competition, larger grids for the LW classes, then F2's could be let in.  Fact is that F2's aren't made anymore, and thanks to the micro-sprint crowd, they are getting a little scarce.  I just don't think it would matter.  I'm indifferent.

George is right, the bike just doesn't matter much at most short tracks.  Besides, if your really serious about winning, you should buy the most competive bike.  Not piss and moan about the fairness of the class structure.  CCS has only 1 spec. class (125gp)  and doesn't need more.

Ben, here it goes!
Have you ever considered that the Duc's in WERA are cheating, have you seen one torn down?  If you saw Georges SB duc and my SS duc side my side going down the straight, you'd see the difference.  I spent 3 hours on a factorypro dyno this weekend getting the map and spark table perfect for Daytona.  The result: 78 hp   It does however hold the power level for 1500 rpm at the top.  Really, any monkey can buy an 1st gen SV, and build it to that power level for much less that the cost of the duc.  And just ask George, the SV's ARE more reliable and easier to maintain... even a with a full tilt motor.  But we're just benchracing anyway... so there will be no clear winner

[benprobst]

Ben, here it goes!
Have you ever considered that the Duc's in WERA are cheating, have you seen one torn down?  If you saw Georges SB duc and my SS duc side my side going down the straight, you'd see the difference.  I spent 3 hours on a factorypro dyno this weekend getting the map and spark table perfect for Daytona.  The result: 78 hp   It does however hold the power level for 1500 rpm at the top.  Really, any monkey can buy an 1st gen SV, and build it to that power level for much less that the cost of the duc.  And just ask George, the SV's ARE more reliable and easier to maintain... even a with a full tilt motor.  But we're just benchracing anyway... so there will be no clear winner

yes, ive seen 2 torn down, both built by the same motorbuilder that is building my competitions bikes. They passed. Im sorry but any monkey with a wrench can make 90 hp with their ducati like you have, and the guys with actualy talent and experience make 95-100. Like I said, the bikes are comparitive in SB, I just dont think so in SS.

And where have you been getting your numbers on club growth? Id suggest taking a look at grid sizes, as well as depth before you say WERA hasnt experienced growth, sure they may have lost a few grid fillers to CCS and the regional stuff may now be not THAT much different for turn out at the big races for CCS vs. the small races for WERA. But the national stuff isnt even comparable. The grids in CCS GP are down right embarassing, and from what ive seen the MW grids arent much better, even at home tracks like BHF. But I havent been to a CCS race for a while, so maybe they got a bunch bigger this year.

[Burt Munro]

  The grids in CCS GP are down right embarassing, and from what ive seen the MW grids arent much better, even at home tracks like BHF. But I havent been to a CCS race for a while, so maybe they got a bunch bigger this year.

Ben,

Please stop talking out of your ass!

You race one CCS race this year at Gateway and now you've developed an opinion on 2 regions.  Were you at Topeka?  Were you at Road America with 1800+ entries?

I worked Tech and Grid or Starter at all of the Midwest and Midwest/Great Plains combined races this year.  I still have the Grid sheets from the last 2 race weekends at Blackhawk.  Would you like some facts on the size of the Grids or would that contradict your opinion.

Opinions are great as long they are based on some semblance of accuracy. 

Oh, and by the way, my opinion is that the Moon is made out of Swiss cheese!

Fire away!!!!!

[123user]

WERA is dead anywhere west of Ohio and East of Colorado.  That's where I live (you too)  If you want to drive 8 hours to ride on go-cart track.  That's up to you. 

The WERA rulebook is more similar to AHRMA than any modern racing organization.  No offense to AHRMA, vintage racing is really cool.

If you look at attendence in anything below "C" class, participation is spotty.  There's a lot of race results in D superbike, clubman, and two stroke classes with one, two, or three entries.  Who the heck is racing RZ350's anymore?  CCS has combined all the stragglers into ultra-lightweight.  This keep the cost of racing down for the average guy. When a Hawk GT is the most current bike in a couple of classes, the rulebook is out of date; unless your AHRMA

I'm also weary of the HP game.  One dyno says 90, another says 100.  Lets go over to gateway on a tuesday night and see how different our top speed through the trap is.  That's the best indicator of HP.  I'd bet that our two bikes would only be off by a couple of MPH.  I'm sure your 60 foot times would be better, no dry clutch to manhandle.

[George_Linhart]

Ben,

This has gotten far off the subject of Ron's original post.  Ron didn't start this subject to debate the Suzuki/Ducati/Buell issue or to talk about the size and rate of change of CCS MW/GP grids.  His request was simply for those racing the LW class to indicate if they would support his petition to add the Honda CBR F2 into the LW grids in the hopes that Kevin/Eric would consider making a rules change.

I said "FINE in LW GP and SB" while you say "HELL NO" - so lets just agree that you and I disagree.

If you want to start your own topic proposing that CCS addopt the WERA rules please start your own thread rather than thread-jacking Ron's post.  I know that this is a subject that is very important to him and he would appreciate keeping the topic clear.

How about a response from anybody else with a vested interest in the CCS LW classes (ie - only those who plan on racing LW next year).

Allow the F2 into the LW classes - Yes or No?

Thanks,

George

[EX_#76]